40 minute races for German Cars
- Thread starter Andy97
- Start date
Neil Haughey
New member
ORIGINAL: DivineE
ORIGINAL: MarkK
Dunno exactly what/if at all for next year racewise,might even stay at home and take up a new quiet hobby..[]
WHAT!
[
] He is only jesting. I have seen the look in his eyes before going out on track. Mark you look to me like a race addict good and proper.The first race for this new CSCC Series took place at Snetterton on 10th April & 12 cars took to the grid (all front engined Porsches & BMWs). The club thought that this wasn't a bad start for a brand new series and hopefully more will be out this weekend at Brands Hatch for race 2, especially as a few of the CSCC "Future Classic" runners may switch to "Deutsche Marque" if FC is over subscribed as seems likely.
The race was won by George Mutteen in a 944 S2.
It would be good to see more cars out and the up to 2.5 litre class must be the ideal place for a few of the older Porsche 944s that are in captivity, especially if in the 190 Bhp trim that EMC seem to be able to develop for the old Super Coupe Cup.
The race was won by George Mutteen in a 944 S2.
It would be good to see more cars out and the up to 2.5 litre class must be the ideal place for a few of the older Porsche 944s that are in captivity, especially if in the 190 Bhp trim that EMC seem to be able to develop for the old Super Coupe Cup.
Neil Haughey
New member
That is actually a very good point Andy as hardly anyone runs the 2.5 944 these days which is a shame really. Should have been the ideal stepping stone car up from the 924.
Ben Eacock drove the nuts of that little green thing last year, it seemed to corner faster than any of the other 944's and if anything not having the power makes it easier to concentrate on keeping it on the boil through the corners. It was super light that car as well, made my already very light S2 (1130 Kg) look portly.
I think George did exceptionally well to win outright in his new build and very colourful S2. He is really flying this year, I heard he ran a 52 second lap at Mallory as well.
Ben Eacock drove the nuts of that little green thing last year, it seemed to corner faster than any of the other 944's and if anything not having the power makes it easier to concentrate on keeping it on the boil through the corners. It was super light that car as well, made my already very light S2 (1130 Kg) look portly.
I think George did exceptionally well to win outright in his new build and very colourful S2. He is really flying this year, I heard he ran a 52 second lap at Mallory as well.
Neil Haughey
New member
I had a look at the pictures via a link from Ten Tenths, gutted for George, went straight on and well dug in to the gravel trap outside Paddock.
Jonny944CS
New member
Assuming car and driver are ready to go, roughly how much are we talking for a seasons racing?
I did 4 track days plus a Nordschleife trip last year, just wondering how big the jump is....
Entry fees for a 30 min practice & 40 min race are about £330 average per race. Series registration is £95 & membership fee is £35. A set of tyres (road legal List 1B tyres) will cost about £600-700 & will last all season, probably. maybe half a season. I use 6 tyres in a season on my FWD saloon). Race fuel will be c £75 per meeting, allow £100 per meeting consumables. You may or may not need someone to help you at the track - a mate, free!
Remember that these costs can be split between 2 & its possible to "earn" some money back by hiring out the second drive.
Feel free to ask anything else. Neil maybe able to help on more specific 944 costs, I have just guesstimated.
What I will say is that you cannot really compare a track day to the thrill of competition. I do still do the odd track day, but I'm usually bored by lunchtime. When I race, as soon as the race is over I am thinking about & desperate for the next one!
Remember that these costs can be split between 2 & its possible to "earn" some money back by hiring out the second drive.
Feel free to ask anything else. Neil maybe able to help on more specific 944 costs, I have just guesstimated.
What I will say is that you cannot really compare a track day to the thrill of competition. I do still do the odd track day, but I'm usually bored by lunchtime. When I race, as soon as the race is over I am thinking about & desperate for the next one!
Neil Haughey
New member
All of that is pretty much bang on. With regards the tyres I have the hard H1 compound Dunlops on my S2 and given its so light (1100ish Kg) they wear very slowly. I think if one wasn't yet at the leading pace they would last a season. Alex and Pete in the white EMC S2 managed about 4 races or so per set of tyres but ISTR they used the gripper softer R1 compound and generally went very fast. The Pagid brake pads are mega expensive but again on an S2 they last all season just may require everything cleaning up a couple or 3 times through the year.
Other expenses to think about are the costs of fuel getting to the races and hotel/B&B costs. The fuel in particular is a surprisingly big hit now.
One thing many forget about is all the associated fix it costs on the car. My S2 is currently having the head rebuilt as a result of hitting the limiter hard last year at Silverstone, this is another £1K+ and similarily last year I had one of those bills to sort out a few issues. On top of the costs of basic service stuff, brakes, tyres etc. I reckon one needs to budget another 2 to 3 grand a year to pay for 'fixing it' stuff which still assumes average car breakage not stacking it which is heart brakingly expensive for most of us.
I did some sums the other week actually based on my car and limited experience to date but I reckoned I could do the whole season in CSCC for about £8.5K. As is always the way with racing once you start becoming a pot hunter and doing loads of test days on top the costs will spiral very quickly. Luckily most of the guys I have seen competing in CSCC just want to have a good race and aren't super rich wannabe's.
I should add something to follow on from what Andy said about racing and it follows from a personal story about my experience. Someone very experienced said to me you will never know how you react to racing until you try it, he reckoned that when you line up on the grid and hammer off from a standing start rookies react one of two ways. You either go for it like a rabid dog or sh*t your pants []. I think he was right as the best memories I have from the 2 races I started was those 2 standing starts. I had a nightmare start to my racing life but its a drug that has hooked me in all the same, I can say with 100% certainty that the feeling of barreling into Copse corner 3 cars abreast bang in the middle of a 40 car grid was one of the most awesome experiences of my life, almost makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up just thinking about.
Other expenses to think about are the costs of fuel getting to the races and hotel/B&B costs. The fuel in particular is a surprisingly big hit now.
One thing many forget about is all the associated fix it costs on the car. My S2 is currently having the head rebuilt as a result of hitting the limiter hard last year at Silverstone, this is another £1K+ and similarily last year I had one of those bills to sort out a few issues. On top of the costs of basic service stuff, brakes, tyres etc. I reckon one needs to budget another 2 to 3 grand a year to pay for 'fixing it' stuff which still assumes average car breakage not stacking it which is heart brakingly expensive for most of us.
I did some sums the other week actually based on my car and limited experience to date but I reckoned I could do the whole season in CSCC for about £8.5K. As is always the way with racing once you start becoming a pot hunter and doing loads of test days on top the costs will spiral very quickly. Luckily most of the guys I have seen competing in CSCC just want to have a good race and aren't super rich wannabe's.
I should add something to follow on from what Andy said about racing and it follows from a personal story about my experience. Someone very experienced said to me you will never know how you react to racing until you try it, he reckoned that when you line up on the grid and hammer off from a standing start rookies react one of two ways. You either go for it like a rabid dog or sh*t your pants [
]. I think he was right as the best memories I have from the 2 races I started was those 2 standing starts. I had a nightmare start to my racing life but its a drug that has hooked me in all the same, I can say with 100% certainty that the feeling of barreling into Copse corner 3 cars abreast bang in the middle of a 40 car grid was one of the most awesome experiences of my life, almost makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up just thinking about.
Jonny944CS
New member
Thanks for the info guys. It is very interesting to hear your experiences and opinions.
The closest I have come to proper racing is through the odd Club 100 and Endro kart race. I can certainly see how the racing could become seriously addictive. One thing that appealed about the karts was the near parity of equipment and arrive 'n' drive nature.
On the other hand, I have really enjoyed the 944 on track, and could I see how much more fun could be available through a good racing series.
The CSCC series sounds ideal and in the grand scheme of racing 8.5k is pretty damm good for a full season. Clearly it is a significant financial step-up from track days though, one that is sadly a little too far for me at the moment. But I would definitely like to try and get along to one of the races, for a good nose around, at some point this year.
The closest I have come to proper racing is through the odd Club 100 and Endro kart race. I can certainly see how the racing could become seriously addictive. One thing that appealed about the karts was the near parity of equipment and arrive 'n' drive nature.
On the other hand, I have really enjoyed the 944 on track, and could I see how much more fun could be available through a good racing series.
The CSCC series sounds ideal and in the grand scheme of racing 8.5k is pretty damm good for a full season. Clearly it is a significant financial step-up from track days though, one that is sadly a little too far for me at the moment. But I would definitely like to try and get along to one of the races, for a good nose around, at some point this year.
Jonny, we are at Donington park on 28/29 May. I can't remeber which day but I think its the sat!
I don't do a whole season, I just do what I can afford so 4-5 races. It's not a Championship so you don't realy feel as though as you are missing out if you don't do the lot. You could hire a shared drive in someone elses car or, as I said earlier you could make some money back by hiring out a shared drive in your car.
I don't do a whole season, I just do what I can afford so 4-5 races. It's not a Championship so you don't realy feel as though as you are missing out if you don't do the lot. You could hire a shared drive in someone elses car or, as I said earlier you could make some money back by hiring out a shared drive in your car.
Neil Haughey
New member
Same for me Jonny, I did some indoor GP type stuff and outdoor endurance. The indoor GP karting in particular was huge fun and was the predominant factor that led to me deciding to have a go at racing after my first track day [
]. Still haven't enjoyed it as much thus far bta last year was a mad rush in at the deep end job for me. Did my first race 3 days after driving the car for the first time since its build.Just go for it! A very simple way of managing the cost is just to do less racing, after all you only really need to do a whole season if competing for a championship. Everyone has their favourite or local tracks as well.
The CSCC Deutsche Marque Regs for 2012 are out now & can be found here:
http://www.classicsportscarclub.co.uk/deutschemarq...
The club have made some changes to the series regs. The series grew well in 2011 with a high point of 19 cars at Silverstone, not bad for a series in its first year, but feedback from competitors and potential competitors has led to a few slight changes to try to encourage even more cars out, particularly smaller capacity cars and cars with nearer standard power outputs.
The main changes are:
1. German cars (inc Opels etc) of any age are allowed to compete (previously it was 1990 onwards)
2. BMW minis are now allowed in (in both naturally aspirated and forced induction form)
3. Turbo cars are now allowed in up to 2.5 litres (it was previously limited to 2 litres turbo)
4. 1.8 litre VAG Turbo powered cars will now be allowed in the up to 3 litre class (previously they were over 3 litres).
5 The class structure has been revised as follows (Class A & B are new):
Class structure:
Class A - Up to 1600cc normally aspirated
Class B - 1601cc to 1800cc normally aspirated
Class C - 1801cc to 2499cc normally aspirated
Class D - 2500cc to 2999cc including VAG 1800 Turbos and forced induction BMW Mini Cooper.
Class E - up to 3000cc models with variable valve timing as a standard feature including 3 litre BMW M3 and Porsche 968
Class F- 3000cc and over including Porsche 944 Turbo and BMW 3.2 Evo
Class I - Invitation Class. (Not eligible for awards)
Porsche GT2 and GT3 are specifically excluded from the series as are all cars prepared to BMWRDC Kumho Championship Classes A to D technical regulations.
Class C is now the ideal place for the older 2.5 litre 944s and 924S
Class D remains the place to be in an S2 and
Class F is now the place to be if you have a 944 Turbo
Remember that you can also race all of these cars in the sister " Future Classic" series.
http://www.classicsportscarclub.co.uk/deutschemarq...
The club have made some changes to the series regs. The series grew well in 2011 with a high point of 19 cars at Silverstone, not bad for a series in its first year, but feedback from competitors and potential competitors has led to a few slight changes to try to encourage even more cars out, particularly smaller capacity cars and cars with nearer standard power outputs.
The main changes are:
1. German cars (inc Opels etc) of any age are allowed to compete (previously it was 1990 onwards)
2. BMW minis are now allowed in (in both naturally aspirated and forced induction form)
3. Turbo cars are now allowed in up to 2.5 litres (it was previously limited to 2 litres turbo)
4. 1.8 litre VAG Turbo powered cars will now be allowed in the up to 3 litre class (previously they were over 3 litres).
5 The class structure has been revised as follows (Class A & B are new):
Class structure:
Class A - Up to 1600cc normally aspirated
Class B - 1601cc to 1800cc normally aspirated
Class C - 1801cc to 2499cc normally aspirated
Class D - 2500cc to 2999cc including VAG 1800 Turbos and forced induction BMW Mini Cooper.
Class E - up to 3000cc models with variable valve timing as a standard feature including 3 litre BMW M3 and Porsche 968
Class F- 3000cc and over including Porsche 944 Turbo and BMW 3.2 Evo
Class I - Invitation Class. (Not eligible for awards)
Porsche GT2 and GT3 are specifically excluded from the series as are all cars prepared to BMWRDC Kumho Championship Classes A to D technical regulations.
Class C is now the ideal place for the older 2.5 litre 944s and 924S
Class D remains the place to be in an S2 and
Class F is now the place to be if you have a 944 Turbo
Remember that you can also race all of these cars in the sister " Future Classic" series.
The CSCC Deutsche Marque series has changed for 2013 and is now called "Modern Classics". It is now open to any car upto model year 2000 and all those cars from the previous Deutsche Marques series as they have "grandfather rights". I am going to be the co-ordinator.
The class splits have been designed to be different to those in the sister CSCC Future Classics series to try to attract other cars out that may fall in between the FC class limits. Eg a 2.5 litre 944 would be in the 2 litre to 3 litre FC class (against 944 S2 etc) and might not be competitive but in the Modern Classics series it would be at the top of the 1800 to 2500 cc class and would be a good contender.
The classes are:
Upto 1600cc
1601-1799cc
1800-2499cc
2500-3199cc
3200cc+
Turbo cars are welcome up to a max of 2 litre and have an equivelancy of 1.7 applied
All BMW 3 litre cars go in to the above 3.2 litre class
4WD turbo cars have their own additional class.
I hope that we'll see a few older 944s out as well as S2 in the appropriate class.
Any questions, just ask or have a look at the CSCC web site.
The class splits have been designed to be different to those in the sister CSCC Future Classics series to try to attract other cars out that may fall in between the FC class limits. Eg a 2.5 litre 944 would be in the 2 litre to 3 litre FC class (against 944 S2 etc) and might not be competitive but in the Modern Classics series it would be at the top of the 1800 to 2500 cc class and would be a good contender.
The classes are:
Upto 1600cc
1601-1799cc
1800-2499cc
2500-3199cc
3200cc+
Turbo cars are welcome up to a max of 2 litre and have an equivelancy of 1.7 applied
All BMW 3 litre cars go in to the above 3.2 litre class
4WD turbo cars have their own additional class.
I hope that we'll see a few older 944s out as well as S2 in the appropriate class.
Any questions, just ask or have a look at the CSCC web site.
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