Could the 718 replacement be an EV?
- Thread starter Motorhead
- Start date
I wouldn’t be surprised Dave given that a GT3 is £158k and a GT3 RS £192k … and those are just current prices!
In response to Dan’s comments, the GT4 RS has already broken the “power” glass-ceiling with the GT3 engine installation with it having 500PS/450N-m compared with 510PS/450N-m, the power difference being attributed to different exhaust systems I think. If rather than continuing with the 718 platform Porsche plan to adapt the 992 chassis for a mid-engine layout the revised cars inevitably will be longer and wider [over the mirrors] than the 718 [4.570m x 2.033m vs 4.456m x 1.994m]. But as Ralph points out, what we’ll end up with is two versions of a 911: rear-engined and mid-engined.
Having said that we can look back to the simultaneous engineering of the original 986 Boxster and the 996, so Porsche have a track record in that respect. The GT3 RS now has a wishbone front suspension with the multi-link rear suspension which could be carried across to the whole 911 range while the new GT4 RS and Spyder RS could continue with a cheaper strut arrangement front and rear.
Jeff
In response to Dan’s comments, the GT4 RS has already broken the “power” glass-ceiling with the GT3 engine installation with it having 500PS/450N-m compared with 510PS/450N-m, the power difference being attributed to different exhaust systems I think. If rather than continuing with the 718 platform Porsche plan to adapt the 992 chassis for a mid-engine layout the revised cars inevitably will be longer and wider [over the mirrors] than the 718 [4.570m x 2.033m vs 4.456m x 1.994m]. But as Ralph points out, what we’ll end up with is two versions of a 911: rear-engined and mid-engined.
Having said that we can look back to the simultaneous engineering of the original 986 Boxster and the 996, so Porsche have a track record in that respect. The GT3 RS now has a wishbone front suspension with the multi-link rear suspension which could be carried across to the whole 911 range while the new GT4 RS and Spyder RS could continue with a cheaper strut arrangement front and rear.
Jeff
A mini-RSR indeed Dave, although I doubt that Porsche would allow it to surpass the capabilities of a GT3 RS and more likely would continue with the strut suspension up front on a cost and bragging rites basis, although I doubt that the true parts costs actually would much different for them.
I was wondering if packaging the mid-engine layout in a 992 chassis would cause any major problems and came across this wheelbase data:
718 GT4 2.475m
718 GT4 RS 2.482m
992 GT3 & RS 2.457m
Interesting to note a difference between the GT4 and GT4 RS wheelbase. The GT4 RS wheelbase is 25mm longer than that of the GT3, which isn’t a big surprise but which suggests that a mid-engine layout may have to be positioned further forward if any mid and rear-engine configurations are to share the same rear suspension layout. Space and driveshaft misalignment tolerances would dictate the final design. All speculation, and too many unknowns ATM!
Jeff
I was wondering if packaging the mid-engine layout in a 992 chassis would cause any major problems and came across this wheelbase data:
718 GT4 2.475m
718 GT4 RS 2.482m
992 GT3 & RS 2.457m
Interesting to note a difference between the GT4 and GT4 RS wheelbase. The GT4 RS wheelbase is 25mm longer than that of the GT3, which isn’t a big surprise but which suggests that a mid-engine layout may have to be positioned further forward if any mid and rear-engine configurations are to share the same rear suspension layout. Space and driveshaft misalignment tolerances would dictate the final design. All speculation, and too many unknowns ATM!
Jeff
The GT4/RS wheelbase thing is a bit strange Jeff - I would have thought they would have been the same? I think the RS front end is slightly different to the regular GT4 though, alongside the center lock hubs and larger brake calipers and option of front axle lift, so that may be why. Rear is the same as far as I know.
Calling TDT to the Batphone
Calling TDT to the Batphone
Yes that is a bit odd Dave, but I suppose 7mm [1/4” in old money] is neither here nor there, and as you say could be down to hub differences, etc. Hopefully T will come to our rescue!
In my musings [ramblings?] about a mid-engine 992 configuration I forgot that the rear-engine layout allows for those laughably small rear seats which intrude upon the engine bay. Another - but significant - complication!
Another thread that has wandered off-topic!
Jeff
In my musings [ramblings?] about a mid-engine 992 configuration I forgot that the rear-engine layout allows for those laughably small rear seats which intrude upon the engine bay. Another - but significant - complication!
Another thread that has wandered off-topic!
Jeff
If the Autocar magazine report on "a top edition" of the new generation 718 Cayman offering a combustion petrol engine proves correct, I would propose calling it the "R" to revive the much lamented 987.2 CR. Having owned one myself, this mildly tuned, 997 GT3 aluminium doored, soundproofing lite, driver's car, was an absolute dream to own and drive. They are still fetching £40K.
My preference would be for an affordable, daily useable Cayman rather than aiming for the full fat RS options. By doing so would not conflict with the 992.2 911 model range, and allow a more affordable pricing structure.......hopefully.
Re-introducing a Cayman R to the model line-up would be in keeping with Porsche's other low volume heritage models such as the 911 Sport Classic.
Brian.
My preference would be for an affordable, daily useable Cayman rather than aiming for the full fat RS options. By doing so would not conflict with the 992.2 911 model range, and allow a more affordable pricing structure.......hopefully.
Re-introducing a Cayman R to the model line-up would be in keeping with Porsche's other low volume heritage models such as the 911 Sport Classic.
Brian.
Brian,
Much as we’d like to see something more akin to the Cayman R reintroduced I can’t see that happening, especially with Porsche’s current somewhat perilous financial situation, so they’ll want to capitalise on relatively low volume premium priced cars like the GT4 RS and Spyder RS to claw-back the significant development and manufacturing costs.
Incidentally, according to Google AI the Cayman R supposedly was about 55kg* lighter than the 987.2 Cayman S, but only if it had the lightweight seats and with the radio and aircon deleted. In practice I doubt that there are many cars out there with that spec and I’m guessing that the aircon alone [compressor, two condensers, evaporator, hoses, brackets, etc.] could account for 15-20kg, and a PDK transmission will add another 25kg. My point is that in reality the R wasn’t exactly a lightweight version of the 987.2 Cayman, especially if you take into account different driver weights.
Jeff
* I‘ve just found some handbooks which give the respective unladen weights [DIN] of the R and S variants as 1,295kg and 1,330kg, making the R 35kg lighter than the S, but a PDK transmission will eat considerably into that difference. The spec for the R states “preparation for radio” and includes the Sports bucket seats [I thought that was an option?] and aircon.
Much as we’d like to see something more akin to the Cayman R reintroduced I can’t see that happening, especially with Porsche’s current somewhat perilous financial situation, so they’ll want to capitalise on relatively low volume premium priced cars like the GT4 RS and Spyder RS to claw-back the significant development and manufacturing costs.
Incidentally, according to Google AI the Cayman R supposedly was about 55kg* lighter than the 987.2 Cayman S, but only if it had the lightweight seats and with the radio and aircon deleted. In practice I doubt that there are many cars out there with that spec and I’m guessing that the aircon alone [compressor, two condensers, evaporator, hoses, brackets, etc.] could account for 15-20kg, and a PDK transmission will add another 25kg. My point is that in reality the R wasn’t exactly a lightweight version of the 987.2 Cayman, especially if you take into account different driver weights.
Jeff
* I‘ve just found some handbooks which give the respective unladen weights [DIN] of the R and S variants as 1,295kg and 1,330kg, making the R 35kg lighter than the S, but a PDK transmission will eat considerably into that difference. The spec for the R states “preparation for radio” and includes the Sports bucket seats [I thought that was an option?] and aircon.
I appreciate your comments on my CR thoughts Jeff.
My reasons for buying the R in 2012 was not only about lighter weight, although being honest it was a contributing factor in a small way. The appeal of the parts bin raid on the run out 987.2 model, including the limited slip diff, performance exhaust manifold, GT3 aluminium doors, carbon bucket seats, Alcantara trim, less sound insulation, and exclusive wheels, were the things that swung it for me. The cost as I recall was around £51k.
It would be so easy for Porsche to take the current Cayman GTS 4.0, fluff up the engine tune to 410bhp, add 200rpm to the rev limit taking it to 8000rpm, raid the parts bin, add a few cosmetic bits and bobs. Offer both PDK or 6 speed manual, carbon bucket seats, exclusive wheels and paint options. Bingo! An instant seller at a reasonably affordable price. The 718 CGTS 4.0 still produces gushing road tester reviews, keen customer demand, and a solid reputation as the sweet spot of the range. This car has been a marketing success.
As a run-out opportunity built on current demand, a 718 Cayman R 4.0 is my choice by a mile. I can only hope Porsche see it the same way. It has a precedent already in the successful 987.2 Cayman R.
Brian.
My reasons for buying the R in 2012 was not only about lighter weight, although being honest it was a contributing factor in a small way. The appeal of the parts bin raid on the run out 987.2 model, including the limited slip diff, performance exhaust manifold, GT3 aluminium doors, carbon bucket seats, Alcantara trim, less sound insulation, and exclusive wheels, were the things that swung it for me. The cost as I recall was around £51k.
It would be so easy for Porsche to take the current Cayman GTS 4.0, fluff up the engine tune to 410bhp, add 200rpm to the rev limit taking it to 8000rpm, raid the parts bin, add a few cosmetic bits and bobs. Offer both PDK or 6 speed manual, carbon bucket seats, exclusive wheels and paint options. Bingo! An instant seller at a reasonably affordable price. The 718 CGTS 4.0 still produces gushing road tester reviews, keen customer demand, and a solid reputation as the sweet spot of the range. This car has been a marketing success.
As a run-out opportunity built on current demand, a 718 Cayman R 4.0 is my choice by a mile. I can only hope Porsche see it the same way. It has a precedent already in the successful 987.2 Cayman R.
Brian.
The 718 production line is still busy completing the last customer orders, due to be complete by the end of this month. After that, the line is to be repurposed for future product, unless the current changes in strategy at Porsche lead to a stay of execution for the 718 in some form or another. There is still time for an about face to be announced. If they did re-open for 718 orders, I suspect that they would have plenty takers for the GTS 4.0, but perhaps at a price.
Yes, I appreciate that the CR was more than a very slightly lighter CS Brian. I was merely making the point that in practice the weight saving was minimal, as is often the case with the Porsche “Special Edition” cars I must say, even if it is trumpeted as a feature.
As Dan points out, 718 production has now ceased. As I understand it the Osnabrück plant is being closed-down and sold-off by VAG, so currently there’s nowhere it can be produced since I’m not sure that the Stuttgart lines could be used to assemble the 992, Boxster and Cayman EVs and the 718. Significant engineering effort probably would be required to make the 4.0L engine Euro 7 fully compliant, and the cyber security issue would have to be addressed for EU sales. I agree that your proposed 718 4.0L CR would make a great car, but unfortunately I think that it’s a non-starter. Never say never though!
Jeff
As Dan points out, 718 production has now ceased. As I understand it the Osnabrück plant is being closed-down and sold-off by VAG, so currently there’s nowhere it can be produced since I’m not sure that the Stuttgart lines could be used to assemble the 992, Boxster and Cayman EVs and the 718. Significant engineering effort probably would be required to make the 4.0L engine Euro 7 fully compliant, and the cyber security issue would have to be addressed for EU sales. I agree that your proposed 718 4.0L CR would make a great car, but unfortunately I think that it’s a non-starter. Never say never though!
Jeff
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A 718R was rumoured a couple of years ago, and it was seriously considered by Porsche at the time. I was (and probably still am!) on the expression of interest list for one at my OPC.
However, Porsche clearly decided it wasn't a goer - probably due to positioning and pricing between the GTS and GT4, or more likely the GT4 and GT4RS. There wasn't a lot of room to squeeze it in the Cayman range, and without the motorsport engine it wouldn't be special enough to be priced above the GT4RS. I also think there would be issues giving it a manual gearbox as the unit in the GT4 is at its limit for torque and revs as specified by the manufacturer (Getrag?) so more revs and power would be a no-go. Porsche may well have decided that there was no real benefit in adding an R model and decided to produce as many RS units as it could instead.
However, Porsche clearly decided it wasn't a goer - probably due to positioning and pricing between the GTS and GT4, or more likely the GT4 and GT4RS. There wasn't a lot of room to squeeze it in the Cayman range, and without the motorsport engine it wouldn't be special enough to be priced above the GT4RS. I also think there would be issues giving it a manual gearbox as the unit in the GT4 is at its limit for torque and revs as specified by the manufacturer (Getrag?) so more revs and power would be a no-go. Porsche may well have decided that there was no real benefit in adding an R model and decided to produce as many RS units as it could instead.
I hadn’t heard that one Dave, but as you say it’s difficult to see where an R would have been positioned in a crowded range … above an S but below or above a GTS while not encroaching on the GT4? It just doesn’t make sense. Sadly I would have thought that a manual gearbox option is a non-starter for any future ICE cars.
Back to the Osnabrück closure, it seems that VW still plan to continue production of the T-Roc Cabriolet there until mid-2027, so it does seem odd that Porsche chose to close down the 718 line there well before its EV replacements come on-stream. Seems a bit premature considering there was still demand for the cars, and putting an even bigger dent in profitability. Probably the decision was made when the EV cars were projected to arrive this year rather than next year?
Jeff
Back to the Osnabrück closure, it seems that VW still plan to continue production of the T-Roc Cabriolet there until mid-2027, so it does seem odd that Porsche chose to close down the 718 line there well before its EV replacements come on-stream. Seems a bit premature considering there was still demand for the cars, and putting an even bigger dent in profitability. Probably the decision was made when the EV cars were projected to arrive this year rather than next year?
Jeff
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