911 2.7 MY 1976 body listing slightly to one side

[matthew.saunders1]

Hi everyone,
I've had my 2.7 for a few months now & I've noticed it has a slight list (sag) to the nearside, both front & rear. I had clocked it a while ago, but it's not immediately obvious & I put it down to an optical illusion as my garage floor is slanted. Now I'm using it more I've noticed the list on flat surfaces where I've parked, particularly at the rear.
I have had most of the suspension components recently replaced (shocks, arms, tie rods, bushes) & the car drives without any rattles/bangs. Steering is excellent, stops in a straight line etc. In short nothing to suggest the suspension that has been replaced is at fault (it drives much better now!) Also, looking at pictures pre & post suspension refresh it looks the same as before, so must be something else that wasn't attended to.
The body & panels all appear to be straight. The underside has been insepcted more than once. There is no indication that the car has been in an accident. Aside from normal consumables everything appears original on the car.

Naturally I'm going to take it to my engineer to inspect, but I'd appreciate any comments or opinions before I do please? I've seen comments on the Pelican forum that it may be the Torsion bars & that they can be adjusted?? Any feedback if you've had this issue would be much appreciated!

 

[911hillclimber]

I've owned my 73T for 37 years and have done the suspension alignment several times in those years, and also by specialists who really understand the suspension.
So, I would suggest the garage mechanic has the car on his ramps and measures the floor to the wheel arch tops as they should be about 5mm to each other.

The front distance is different to the rear. The car does not HAVE to be on level ground/surface, but it helps.

If the one side is down on the other then the torsion bars need adjusting to get the lowest to meet the highest.

The front is very easy to do, just a 10mm A/F ring spanner (!) which will raise the front. However....

The rear will also need a similar tweak and that is far more complex.

The procedure is nicely detailed in the Haynes Manual on the early 911's and simple to follow, but it can/will be a sod to do.

I personally would search out a good Porsche independent versed in these early car for the job. If the car 'level' is a mile out (ie 20mm) then adjusting the torsion bars can affect the toe-in front and back, so really a shop with all the right equipment but the right people to use it is the best way.

All done the car will be great.

You can find people in your area in the Porsche Post or better still contact your regional rep who will know the right people to contact.

 

[T911UK]

Small adjustment on the rear should be able to be done on the spring plate

 

[911hillclimber]

Are they 2 piece on the '76 911?

 

[T911UK]

It was actually the changover year so depends on his VIN!

 

[matthew.saunders1]

I've owned my 73T for 37 years and have done the suspension alignment several times in those years, and also by specialists who really understand the suspension.
So, I would suggest the garage mechanic has the car on his ramps and measures the floor to the wheel arch tops as they should be about 5mm to each other.

The front distance is different to the rear. The car does not HAVE to be on level ground/surface, but it helps.

If the one side is down on the other then the torsion bars need adjusting to get the lowest to meet the highest.

The front is very easy to do, just a 10mm A/F ring spanner (!) which will raise the front. However....

The rear will also need a similar tweak and that is far more complex.

The procedure is nicely detailed in the Haynes Manual on the early 911's and simple to follow, but it can/will be a sod to do.

I personally would search out a good Porsche independent versed in these early car for the job. If the car 'level' is a mile out (ie 20mm) then adjusting the torsion bars can affect the toe-in front and back, so really a shop with all the right equipment but the right people to use it is the best way.

All done the car will be great.

You can find people in your area in the Porsche Post or better still contact your regional rep who will know the right people to contact.

Thank you so much for your informative response & suggestions. I am seeing my mechanic today so will book it in at the earliest opportunity. He is quite expert with 911's of this era, but if it requires more specialist skills & equipment I believe he knows where I can take it. Much appreciated!

 

[matthew.saunders1]

It was actually the changover year so depends on his VIN!

Thank you for your advice. Regarding whether it is "2 piece" I am not sure. Naturally I have the VIN. Other than speaking to my mechanic, do you know how I can get this information? From Porsche? Thanks!

 

[911hillclimber]

You will see the difference easy just looking at the side of the trailing arm (spring plate) from the torsion bar bearing cup to the rear brake. The single piece design is smooth and has no side bolts and the 2 piece has 2 side bolts. Anyone dong an early 911 chassis geo set-up will love the 2 piece design.

This is the 2 piece design, note the 2 bolts close to the torsion bar bearing cup. These two bolts are used to allow easy fine tuning of the ride height on these cars.

https://www.design911.co.uk/uploads/products/8b1fafc9-93d3-4424-b7a6-acc48b4852e8/911333009XXlr.jpg

And here the single piece design.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/QsAAAOSwPgVnYvq1/s-l1600.webp

 

[matthew.saunders1]

You will see the difference easy just looking at the side of the trailing arm (spring plate) from the torsion bar bearing cup to the rear brake. The single piece design is smooth and has no side bolts and the 2 piece has 2 side bolts. Anyone dong an early 911 chassis geo set-up will love the 2 piece design.

This is the 2 piece design, note the 2 bolts close to the torsion bar bearing cup. These two bolts are used to allow easy fine tuning of the ride height on these cars.

https://www.design911.co.uk/uploads/products/8b1fafc9-93d3-4424-b7a6-acc48b4852e8/911333009XXlr.jpg

And here the single piece design.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/QsAAAOSwPgVnYvq1/s-l1600.webp

Thank you. I have the single piece design on my car. I see from D911 that the 2 piece design is available. So I assume this is an 'upgrade' option &, as you say, would give better scope for tuning (or levelling) the ride height?

 

[911hillclimber]

Yes, I installed my 2 piece arms when I fitted the aluminium 'banana' arms on my '73 hillclilmb 911.
The man who aligned it thanked me and said it will have saved me about an hour or more in labour compared to the job with single piece arms.

In my 35 years with my 73T I've done the chassis about 6 times, so good investment.

If you see this job as the only time you will visit the geometry then stick with the single piece as it is only the low side he needs to tweak.

iirc the 2 piece had a range of height adjustment of about +/- 10mm so the arm still needs careful positioning on the torsion bar.

When I've done my suspension and removed the arms totally I set the 2 piece to mid-way so I can raise or lower each side +/- 10mm, really useful.

These cars are so much nicer with the ride heights right (called corner weighting) esp if the car is driven 'hard' like in a full on hillclimb accent.

 

[matthew.saunders1]

Yes, I installed my 2 piece arms when I fitted the aluminium 'banana' arms on my '73 hillclilmb 911.
The man who aligned it thanked me and said it will have saved me about an hour or more in labour compared to the job with single piece arms.

In my 35 years with my 73T I've done the chassis about 6 times, so good investment.

If you see this job as the only time you will visit the geometry then stick with the single piece as it is only the low side he needs to tweak.

iirc the 2 piece had a range of height adjustment of about +/- 10mm so the arm still needs careful positioning on the torsion bar.

When I've done my suspension and removed the arms totally I set the 2 piece to mid-way so I can raise or lower each side +/- 10mm, really useful.

These cars are so much nicer with the ride heights right (called corner weighting) esp if the car is driven 'hard' like in a full on hillclimb accent.

Thank you once again. I have it booked in for next week. Good luck with your next hillclimb!

 

[matthew.saunders1]

Thank you once again. I have it booked in for next week. Good luck with your next hillclimb!

Just one further question. We've discussed the rear adjustment with the spring plates. On the same side the front appears down as well. Is there also adjustment at the front to be had, or is this likely to just be as a result of the rear end being out?

 

[911hillclimber]

The front is dead easy! If your man is familiar with old 911's. he will know this:
There is one simple bolt, (one on each front suspension assembly) 13mm A/F that changes the torsional tension on the torsion bar and thus raises/lowers a front corner. as you screw it in/out.
It is a fine adjustment and has a large range of movement, one turn is about 10mm ride height change iirc.

I would set the rear level first by jacking the front 'just' off the ground, both wheels off the floor by about 12mm. The legs may droop a touch more.

Adjust the rear side you want to change until the wheel arch peaks are the same with the rear sitting on the floor.
Bring the front down to the ground sharply and roll the car forwards/backward a few feet to settle the suspension. A few bounces on the nose will help!

Now check the heights of the front wing arches and adjust one corner until level across the front axle. You do this by screwing in/out that M8 bolt.

Roll the car again and re-check arch heights. Be ready to repeat the adjustments several times.

I think this will have the car 'level' enough for simple road driving, but you will need move equipment to do a super accurate job (as for a race set-up)
Check toe-in front and rear as it might have changed.

This little lot is a bit of a game, your car will not be unusual if your man has to sweat on it a touch.

My last DIY race set up took 10 hours, but I had to set every angle and a full ride height/corner weighting. Tedious!

Nor sure just how detailed you want to go but as a general rule of thumb:

Set the front height of the car such that the lower A arms are horizontal to the road/ramp. This gives the car about 20mm lower ride height than standard. Any more and you will have problems which I will not go into. Be very sure the car is level across the front axle, and the ramps/ road are true too.

With a spirit level/inclinometer or smart phone (!) on the door sill jack the rear of the car and set the rear such that the sills are at 1 degree 'up', ie the rear is slightly higher than the front measured along the two sills. (a nose down stance).
Remove and set the spring arms so that when the car is on the ground, rolled back and forth a few times the sills are still at the 1 degree position.
This is where the 2 piece spring plates are nice as you can fine set them to achieve this " 1 degree" quickly and accurately but you can do all this with a single piece spring arm too, just takes longer and more swear words.
I have only done this task with one-piece spring arms once, and never again, hence the car being converted to 2 piece which the factory did too!

You then need to check and adjust all the other angles on the car's suspension and this can be tricky and needs patience....


As said before, the procedure is well documented in the Haynes manual.

Hope it all goes well next week!

 

[matthew.saunders1]

The front is dead easy! If your man is familiar with old 911's. he will know this:
There is one simple bolt, (one on each front suspension assembly) 13mm A/F that changes the torsional tension on the torsion bar and thus raises/lowers a front corner. as you screw it in/out.
It is a fine adjustment and has a large range of movement, one turn is about 10mm ride height change iirc.

I would set the rear level first by jacking the front 'just' off the ground, both wheels off the floor by about 12mm. The legs may droop a touch more.

Adjust the rear side you want to change until the wheel arch peaks are the same with the rear sitting on the floor.
Bring the front down to the ground sharply and roll the car forwards/backward a few feet to settle the suspension. A few bounces on the nose will help!

Now check the heights of the front wing arches and adjust one corner until level across the front axle. You do this by screwing in/out that M8 bolt.

Roll the car again and re-check arch heights. Be ready to repeat the adjustments several times.

I think this will have the car 'level' enough for simple road driving, but you will need move equipment to do a super accurate job (as for a race set-up)
Check toe-in front and rear as it might have changed.

This little lot is a bit of a game, your car will not be unusual if your man has to sweat on it a touch.

My last DIY race set up took 10 hours, but I had to set every angle and a full ride height/corner weighting. Tedious!

Nor sure just how detailed you want to go but as a general rule of thumb:

Set the front height of the car such that the lower A arms are horizontal to the road/ramp. This gives the car about 20mm lower ride height than standard. Any more and you will have problems which I will not go into. Be very sure the car is level across the front axle, and the ramps/ road are true too.

With a spirit level/inclinometer or smart phone (!) on the door sill jack the rear of the car and set the rear such that the sills are at 1 degree 'up', ie the rear is slightly higher than the front measured along the two sills. (a nose down stance).
Remove and set the spring arms so that when the car is on the ground, rolled back and forth a few times the sills are still at the 1 degree position.
This is where the 2 piece spring plates are nice as you can fine set them to achieve this " 1 degree" quickly and accurately but you can do all this with a single piece spring arm too, just takes longer and more swear words.
I have only done this task with one-piece spring arms once, and never again, hence the car being converted to 2 piece which the factory did too!

You then need to check and adjust all the other angles on the car's suspension and this can be tricky and needs patience....


As said before, the procedure is well documented in the Haynes manual.

Hope it all goes well next week!

Thank you once again. From what I have now seen the 2 piece spring plates definitely seem the way to go. I'm just trying to get the car back to a standard height. I have Haynes manual on order & look forward to studying it once I get it. Your guidance has been invaluable, thank you!