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Helpful ReplyHot!1972T Coupe donor car - restoration or ST project? Advice sought please

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Matteo68
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2021/09/03 12:17:53 (permalink)

1972T Coupe donor car - restoration or ST project? Advice sought please

I have recently re-joined the Club after a twenty year absence (I used to own a beautiful Polar Silver 1996 993 C2 Manual Coupe before children arrived) and have also purchased a 1972 T Coupe in need of restoration which is being shipped from the USA at present.
 
Interestingly it was supplied new to Hawaii and has resided there ever since, with the last owner having owned it since 1984. It appears to be in sound condition throughout with only some superficial rust on the lower doors and the engine turns freely by hand.
 
However I have obtained a CoA-type record for it and examined the chassis plate and various stamps on the car and it is clear that it has been resprayed at some point from the original Tangerine to Burgundy and it is not matching numbers (the originally-supplied 4-speed gearbox was changed to a 5-speed (1974-dated gearbox code visible) and furthermore the 2.4 MFI engine bears a 1973 number. I have written to the previous owner in Hawaii to see if he can provide some insight into why and when these changes happened and hope to hear back in due course.
 
I have always had an interest in the ST competition cars of 1970-72 and I also wanted a 1972 oil-flap car (of which not many were made) so when I found this car I felt it would it make an ideal donor car for an exact recreation of the GeLo Racing Team M491 2.5 ST (supplied from the factory in Tangerine) as it raced at Le Mans (and be super-accurate and obtain FIA HTP papers for it in the process). As the engine will be significantly changed and I am proposing to fit ‘Nurburgring’ ratios to the gearbox, matching numbers are arguably not so important.
 
However, sourcing genuine ‘72 or NOS ST parts will be a challenge (and expensive) however, so the alternative to an ST replica would be to restore it back to original T specification (accepting it still won‘t be matching numbers and I’m not sure I would want to put 4-speed internals back in either).
 
So before I start out on this project, I would be keen to hear from other Club members as to what they think about this and what they might be inclined to do in the same circumstances as well as any advice regarding experiences of restoration specialists (good, bad and ugly).
 
Look forward to hearing.
post edited by Matteo68 - 2021/09/03 12:21:04
KIRK
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Re: 1972T Coupe donor car - restoration or ST project? Advice sought please 2021/09/03 14:31:06 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Matteo68 2021/09/03 15:54:12
I completed an authentic ST build on a 1972 MY at the end of last year. It took almost 7 years. I used the appropriate Porsche Werks 'Sports Purpose' documentation. Along with a friend we also inspected three known original STs and took pictures and measurements where appropriate.  Sourcing original parts is close to impossible and or highly expensive. I have seen only one set of original high butterfly in the last 8 years at $18,000. One correct injection pump at €25,000. Finding authentic wheel arches is another big issue. Fortunately, many mechanical parts such as oil consoles are common to period S models on which all Werks STs were based although there were those based on T models built in period by privateers like the Kremer Brothers. You probably know that only around 24 STs were built by Porsche. The 1972 ST is the most expensive to build whereas a 1970 uses pretty well all S mechanical components. 
I obtained or had made repro parts which were indistinguishable from originals. 
Woukd I build another? Definately not as it cost in excess of £100k and took a chunk out of my time. 

Rust Never Sleeps
Matteo68
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Re: 1972T Coupe donor car - restoration or ST project? Advice sought please 2021/09/03 14:45:53 (permalink)
Thanks for the honest advice Kirk and good to hear from you
 
I met Dave O’ Connor at Oilcooled a couple of weeks ago and when I said I lived in Bladon, Woodstock, he almost immediately mentioned your name and said you live nearby and had done an ST yourself. He also showed me around  his 1970 (extremely accurate) ST and encouraged me to be as equally accurate with my build as it would help with maintaining its value as opposed to deviating from period-correct specification. I suppose reproduction items, such as Dansk panels which I saw at Greatworth Classics last week when I paid them a visit (and was very impressed with Angus’ knowledge and professional attitude), would be an acceptable compromise, would save cost, and in some cases be better than original parts.
 
I do have realistic expectations as to how long the project could take and have a budget for it of circa £180k including donor car, but have not totally made my mind up yet as the car is not here yet.
KIRK
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Re: 1972T Coupe donor car - restoration or ST project? Advice sought please 2021/09/05 17:05:45 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Matteo68 2021/09/05 17:19:30
Hello again, 
I had to cut my earlier post short as I am in the process of moving to Woodstock Oxfordshire from Chesterton although my cars have gone into store. I should be at Classics at the Castle next weekend and it would be a good opportunity for you to look over some cars. Dave O'Connor is a really good friend and we collaborated on our ST builds. 
If you have the finances in place I would suggest you seek out S model engine cases and other original S engine parts as a starting point. Complete S engines do come up for sale from time to time but all need rebuilding and this is not a cheap process. Both Dave and I have had some "interesting" experiences with suppliers so would be happy to give you some guidance in that regard. Even given your budget you will still have to rely on repro parts. 
As for the basis of your build: if you purchased it blind beware that unless you are extremely lucky it will have plenty of rust. You may already know that early Porsches can hide their rust. I know you posted on DDK so it might be instructive to look through some of the build threads for restoration projects on the site.
Most of the guys on DDK are very friendly and will help and give advice. I would also point you to early911sregistry.org in the USA which again will provide a wealth of knowledge on early Porsche. There is also a thread on STs. Good luck.
 

Rust Never Sleeps
Matteo68
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Re: 1972T Coupe donor car - restoration or ST project? Advice sought please 2021/09/05 17:18:04 (permalink)
Thanks again Kirk.
 
Unfortunately I’m not going to be able to get to Hedingham castle because I have a mountain-bike race in the Forest of Dean next Sunday but I am going to be at the next Scramble, probably in my father’s 1959 MGA.
 
I’ve been thinking hard about my car and if it does turn out to be a complete basket case when it arrives in the UK, I would be quite happy to sell it for parts or a project car because I’m not totally wedded to it due to the wrong engine and gearbox in it.
 
However I have found an investment-grade LHD ‘72 S in Tangerine with just two owners, 100% complete documentation and in perfect condition throughout currently residing in Europe and I may well switch my focus to that and abandon the ST project completely on the back of your comments.
 
Matt
post edited by Matteo68 - 2021/09/05 17:21:59
David 911old
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Re: 1972T Coupe donor car - restoration or ST project? Advice sought please 2021/09/12 16:56:20 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Matteo68 2021/09/12 19:46:41
Hi Matt,
a friend mentioned your post. If the cars you are looking at don’t work out, let me know as I might have car which would be a good base. It's a 72 E-Spec right hand drive, had quite a bit of body work done a few years ago. I think about 10 years?  The work was before my ownership, had new floors etc and was fitted with RS arches. The guy who did the work has done quite a few Porsches and is currently working on my other car a 73 RS replica. There is one small area where there is some bubbling and surface rust, otherwise is quite solid just needs sorting.
 
I was going to build a fast road / ST car so started looking for parts and I found a 72 S-Spec engine, which has been fitted (I believe engine has 16,000 miles). I have been driving the car whilst waiting for 2 other cars I’m having restored to be completed. If it’s of any interest let me know, otherwise I will carry on with the plan to rebuild at some point next year..
 
David
Matteo68
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Re: 1972T Coupe donor car - restoration or ST project? Advice sought please 2021/09/12 19:52:43 (permalink)
Thanks for the offer David. The donor car has arrived at the shipper’s warehouse now and they have sent me a ton of condition photos (internal and externa) which seem to confirm it’s a solid car, but obviously rust can lurk in all sorts of hidden places. Hopefully it will be on its way in the next couple of weeks and will arrive in Southampton in around November time.
 
As I said to Kirk, if it does turn out to be a basket case I would look to either have use mine for parts or sell it. I could then be interested in yours, particularly if it has an S engine in it (what is the engine by the way). However if its not a basket case, would you be willing to sell me just the engine?
 
Matt
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Re: 1972T Coupe donor car - restoration or ST project? Advice sought please 2021/09/14 19:10:04 (permalink)
Matt,
Thanks for the note but I wouldn’t want to sell the engine separately. It took me a quite a while to find this engine, after a few false starts. I’ll probably start rebuilding the early car next year and I would be back to finding an engine myself. I do have a few contacts I’ll just ask them as its surprising what can turn up. Otherwise DDK is a good place to start, its where I found the engine I have.
David
Matteo68
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Re: 1972T Coupe donor car - restoration or ST project? Advice sought please 2021/09/15 20:43:37 (permalink)
Hello David
 
Understood. Did you have a price in mind for the E at all in case I do want to consider it further when my car arrives? Also, does the S engine have a 632xxxx serial number?
 
Also, if you’re happy to ask your contacts if they are aware of a complete and running S engine (much like you found), I’d be very interested in that too.
 
Finally I will post on DDK now to see if that flushes anything out - I had posted earlier today asking if anyone had a pair of crankcases but in hindsight I think a complete engine would be a much better option due to all the other parts I’ll need including the very expensive MFI pump.
 
Matt
David 911old
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Re: 1972T Coupe donor car - restoration or ST project? Advice sought please 2021/09/18 07:08:16 (permalink)
Hi Matt,
Sorry the reply is a little late, I had to search a bit to find the information on the engine and I’m away traveling at the moment. Engine number is 6321xxx. The chap I purchased it off had a great deal of work done, he does quite a bit of racing and has or had 3-5 cars and is reasonably well known. I have the full description, I’ll dig if out but is quite lengthy. The engine is on PMO carbs (I noticed you mentioned the fuel pump). I was thinking around 60K for the car?
 
I’ll speak with the guy working on my car, as he is a great source for parts or knows where to find them.  I seem to remember a conversation a few years back around fuel pumps, he may even have one tucked away. 
 
David
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