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AIR COOLED MEMORIES

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geedee
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Re: AIR COOLED MEMORIES 2021/03/29 15:40:59 (permalink)
I`m a fan of the static fan in pics, thanks for posting yours, looking very clean and tidy, NICE job indeed..
Heating was a bit of a bugbear at times and could use all the help it could get, and improvements in that area was considered by me as one of the big advantages of the later lean burn engines with their upgraded systems, perhaps more so in our rather damp climate with the level of condensation we have to deal with when setting off from cold. My SC was warm enough once the engine heated up a bit,  just cracking the window open a tad sure helped with initial demisting.
As I remember it that air injection pipework on my SC was looking very corroded and that was over twenty years ago so I can only imagine there may be few "original" set-ups still surviving...? Between that and the K-Jetronic spares issue I wondered if the 3.2 might be a simpler 911 to run. Yeah plugging the heads seems like the way to go to resolve the pipework issues. I wonder if "Porsche Classic" will in time be able to supply the current hard to get spares.. Hmm..?
Great that you discovered the head stud issues before they presented a problem. I guess I was luckier than you in that my 911`s were perhaps not as old as your SC when I owned them thus less corrosion to deal with, though in truth I deserved a break having dealt with more than my fare share of rot on my first Porsche, the 912.
Will attach a pic of my 82 SC when I was preparing it for it`s final paint job in my ownership. I noted your comment re the under wing oil cooler. My 77 under wing oil cooling was no more that a turn around loop in the pipework, whereas on the 82 it was a very robustly built cooler which I hope you can pick out in the pic..?  I have to admit I do not know what the cooler on the 3.2 looks like, sorry.
I can only imagine how many issues one can come across now that these cars are the age they now are... Great that so many are in good hands.

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alastairp
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Re: AIR COOLED MEMORIES 2021/03/29 17:16:33 (permalink)
Later Carrera oil cooler more like a conventional radiator.
It also had a shroud/ stone guard and (I think) an electric fan.
 
 

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alastairp
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Re: AIR COOLED MEMORIES 2021/03/29 17:33:50 (permalink)
Here are the air injectors (less most of the pipework) 

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alastairp
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Re: AIR COOLED MEMORIES 2021/03/29 17:35:18 (permalink)
And then when re-assembled with grub screw plugs
 
 
 

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geedee
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Re: AIR COOLED MEMORIES 2021/03/29 17:58:25 (permalink)
Thanks for the heads up and taking time to post the pic Alistair, I can see why it would need a stone guard, whereas the cooler on my 82 SC was a far sturdier affair made of brass (?) and obviously could take a hit from stones given I cleaned many small stones that were sitting sitting on the top surface of it`s lower tank.
Given the age of SC models much time has passed and many will have been modified in so many and different ways as tends to be the norm for many sports cars, thus it can be difficult to determine the state of tune on an engine that may have been through many hands. thinking compression and cam changes which can affect timing and of course heat generation requiring more cooling than an engine in standard tune.. perhaps the later rad is more efficient and fitted to aid cooling or just that the original(?) was not available, though I suspect the cooler as fitted to my SC would have been more expensive to buy..
Of course the progression in terms of oil cooling efficiency required on standard spec engines seems logical given the simple under wing cooling loop on the 77 SC was enough for it, but the increase of power on the 82 SC was such that more cooling seems likely to have been required than the loop could provide.... Perhaps less so in our Climate Alistair.... (-:
Typing of our  climate as I suggested earlier in this thread I used my SC in all weathers, and will attach a pic that today might have me thrown out of the club if I treated it thus..?   At the time my SC was looked upon as a sports car to be used as such, and only Americans at the time seemed to be into creating Garage Queens....?   (-:

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geedee
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Re: AIR COOLED MEMORIES 2021/03/29 18:04:52 (permalink)
Just spotted your air pipework post... No surprise there were issues with it corroding requiring a bodger to think of a cheap fix.  Those plugs seems like an ideal solution, nice new air deflectors and drian tubes too.  Is that SS manifold too.. No expense spared... Thumbs up..(-:
 
geedee
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Re: AIR COOLED MEMORIES 2021/03/31 09:58:56 (permalink)
Looking back over this thread and paying a bit more attention to your pics Alistair.   The one showing the remnants of the air injection system also shows a fair amount of oil on one of the cylinder, was that down to head stud issues or what..?
The other side-on pic you posted presents a much nicer looking engine than my bling thing, though your engine support bar is different from the ones on my SC and looks to have had some lightness added.. ?  (-:  That mod and your later oil cooler causes me to wonder if the engine had been tuned to any degree raising the possibility of it perhaps having seen some track time..?
Thought to post another pic in the off chance there may still be interest, this one during preparation for the last respray, though I ask you to note that the overspray on the washer tank was not of my doing, I suspect it was the vandal who was less than successful at covering up the work of the original vandal (?) and no doubt charged well for the process. Folk seem to thing they can charge more for working on Porsches than carrying out similar tasks on Fords... I wonder why..?  (-:
 
Re-spraying my two SC`s and with a sun roofs electric mirrors and all those rubber bits to remove and replace was ever a pain.  When the 964 appeared on the scene with it`s Dolly Parton looking front "bumper" I thought at least it would make life easier for those repainting them when the time came...?

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alastairp
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Re: AIR COOLED MEMORIES 2021/03/31 12:02:00 (permalink)
I had no history for the car when I got it so always intended to have the engine re-built - consequently, I didn't pay much attention to where the oil originated, but suffice to say the re-build was just in time.
I took my newly-painted rolling shell to join it's brethren at Porsche in the Glen back in 2013 - ride height a bit high due to not having any engine.
Your old car looks good on cookie cutters - I might look into getting some as an option.
 
 

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geedee
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Re: AIR COOLED MEMORIES 2021/03/31 15:01:05 (permalink)
Good pic Alistair, I like that you included the chap bowing in respect to all the work you had done ..(-: How was the monocoque for corrosion..?  My 82 had the usual scuttle and around the headlights bubbling but not much more than that.  Porsche underseal is wonderful thick rubbery stuff and good to have in places it got to, but not quite far enough..! 
I found a few cuts on the underseal of my 82, which had created openings for damp to get in and crud to build up and work it`s way ever further under the underseal, when I cut the underseal back from the damaged areas it exposed what had been going on behind, the galv had been eaten through and rust was starting, so a close inspection of al areas, Galvafroid applied to the exposed bare metal and a blast of underseal to add a tad more protection, and help it last a few more years.. All that was over 20 years ago so goodness knows how effective my corrosion resistance repairs have turned out to be.. ? Shrug.
When you type of not knowing the engine spec at the time of purchase... that was ever a bug bear for me, and why over the years I arrived at an appreciation for standard tune and in general a machine to be as near "original" as possible... Of course each to their own and it would be a boring planet if we all shared the same preferences..? As a yoof, I was ever fitting lumpy cams and HC pistons and if the money could be stretched a larger carb and megaphone exhaust etc.etc.etc., but then there were ever financial restrictions and thus I spent a lot of time drooling over kit I could not afford creating machines that could produce more power than their clutch, drive chains and more importantly brakes and elderly suspension systems could handle, which created some Frankinstines that were poorly balanced in the engineering sense.
T`was my uncle a one time m/cycle racer who drew me aside and suggested " If you want a fast machine, buy one that was designed for the job, stop wasting cash trying to make something designed for basic transport into a racer."  That did it for me, the first car I bought was a sports car, and yes I did try to make it go faster..some folk never learn..(-:
It seems there have been and still are many amongst us who think modifying our cars to as near race spec as we can afford it de-rigueur then we are likely suffer lumpy idle, lots of noise and no go until it can climb up on to that lumpy cam, before flying off into the distance and feeling every lump and bump in the road directly through your spine so much so if you went over a coin you could tell whether it was heads or tails up..(-: Today it seems the yoof are into slammin and fitting oversized wheels with not much more than rubber bands for tyres... Yeah showing my grumpy old man side..
As for the efforts of a would be tuner at some time in the past modifying an engine,   without knowing cam profile or compression ratio and correct spark plug type, having just bought a rough running car and if/when trying to sort it out you then refer to the settings in the O.E. manual that would seem unlikely to help matters..? Trying to turn the clock back to determine what cam etc. etc. might be fitted can take a bit of effort.
Typing of cam profiles, I and no doubt other SC owners derived a great deal of pleasure from the change in engine note and rapid increase in performance as it would lift it`s skirts and really GO circa 4K revs and all the way up from there, and from that point on it was wise to keep one eye on the rev counter for unlike the family car of the time it would not run out of poke as it got anywhere near the rev limit but would just keep on accelerating until either the rev limiter cut out the sparks or the engine did it`s self some damage. I typed about rotor arm rev limiters already... hope you have checked yours, no more than a few minutes to take the dizzy cap off and check the spring action on the rotor arm...?
As I suspect I mentioned earlier, the cookie cutters being 15" as opposed to the 16" dia of the Fuchs, equated to the Fuchs having lower profile tyres the combination of which would provide more direct steering and feedback which would seem to be the thinking behind creating the "Sport" option SC..?  In my SC on track more noticeably than on the road, yu had to set it up for a corner and let the tyres settle into their shape to then hopefully set the steering angle successfully, though on the road, the advantage was in the higher profile tyres soaking up the bumps and of course the Boge Shockers were no doubt more compliant than the Sport model Bilstines which were fitted to them as standard..?  On today`s pot hole strewn roads give me the Comfort option, but to my eyes the Fuchs look the nicer wheel, and of course are considerably lighter thus reducing the unsprung weight. For sure as a younger man the Sport was ever thought to be the superior version but as an old man now... A degree of comfort suits me sir...(-:  That both sets of O.E. wheel & tyre combinations present the same rolling radius,  neither gearing or speedo read outs should have issues.  
I painted the centres of my cookie cutters a few times, and spent a fair bit of time polishing the bare alloy with Solvol Autosol. I can well understand Porsche choosing alloy for the wheel nuts, which were ever an issue requiring attention, never more so as when having a tyre fitted, the fitter with an air gun in hand ever ready to take the paint off the edges of the nuts or worse. Jeez even a standard socket can damage the paint on these nuts. If I remember correctly at the time there was a soft socket with a nylon (?) insert that was available to minimise damage. Trying to remove a broken or rounded wheel nut was no fun... Don`t ask me how I know..!!! 
As I suggested I thought the Sport look was the business so in time I got round to fitting an O.E. Sport spoilers to front and rear, see attached pic. Bought it as a non-runner for £10k and sold it for £11k as best I can remember, and have no idea of what I spent on it, but whatever that might have been it was worth every penny given my enjoyment of ownership and all the fine folk in PCGB that I came into contact with over the many years.
All air cooled Porsches are OLD cars now, the 964 and 993 bing the more sophisticated seem to present the possibility of more issues/expense relative to their longer term use and maintenance.. Assuming they live life as a sports car and not so much a garage queen, but then I guess evolution dictates the latter seems likely to be the case as the result of the cost and effort that some have had to "invest" in their Porsches to restore some air cooled cars to road worthy condition, but then for as long as I have been involved in running old sports cars it was ever the way that a degree in man maths was a pre-requisite before setting out on any restoration process and for Porsche on parts alone the bill can mount up FAST, apparently accepted by owners as a form of Porsche owner taxation...?

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alastairp
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Re: AIR COOLED MEMORIES 2021/03/31 17:04:38 (permalink)
Oh yes, the tin worm was present aplenty - front inner wings where the crud collects on the top of the impact absorber bracket and is held against the exterior surface of the inner wing. Add a bit of water and long-term and the result is inevitable. See the oil cooler picture above. Inside view below:
 
 

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Re: AIR COOLED MEMORIES 2021/03/31 17:06:28 (permalink)
Of course sills and kidney bowls had also succumbed:
 
 

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Re: AIR COOLED MEMORIES 2021/03/31 17:08:01 (permalink)
A few bubbles on the B-post prodded with a screwdriver yielded this:
 
 

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Re: AIR COOLED MEMORIES 2021/03/31 17:12:55 (permalink)
And the base of the A-post where the windscreen meets the front scuttle/ bulkhead was perforated too:
 
 

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Re: AIR COOLED MEMORIES 2021/03/31 17:16:12 (permalink)
Even after all that, I found another bit of perforated corrosion underneath the underseal:
 
 

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geedee
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Re: AIR COOLED MEMORIES 2021/03/31 20:20:39 (permalink)
Yeah, one would be inclined to think that 911/912 shell was designed to rot despite the galv processes employed from 77 (?) on. There is many a patchwork Porsche hiding all manner of repairs under a wonderful gloss coat of paint, none more than what was my 912, for it was a real rot box and I don`t think there was much left over from what started out as a 8x4 sheet of steel by the time I had welded most of into that old Porsche.
The other Porsche rot pic I posted was of my pal Bob`s 77(?) Targa, we put four new wings on it had rot around the jacking points and the front tank support/cross-member had been "repaired previously, I will attach a couple of pics.  On that point I dote someone has posted a method of posting more than one pick, THANKS, but I am not up for joining a hosting site, preferring to post direct.
Looking at the corrosion on your pics kinda shows up the effect of the passage of time between the time I owned mine and when you started to repair yours. mine was only 10 years old when I bought it, so the tin worm had not got hold to any real degree, it had not much more than a few bubbles in the usual places and scuttle to wing joint surface corrosion. I suspect condensation adds greatly to the 911 corroding from the inside out, given the heating system passes through the sills, which seems less than ideal... OK for the first ten years or so perhaps but a potential issue after that..?
Seems we have become the only two contributing to this post Alastair, if anyone else is out there feel free to jump in..

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Re: AIR COOLED MEMORIES 2021/03/31 20:51:44 (permalink)
Front tank support rot on Bob`s 77 Targa.

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Re: AIR COOLED MEMORIES 2021/03/31 21:15:57 (permalink)
Bob`s  finally rejuvenated 77 Targa. Unfortunately it was written off, as much as any 911 is written off, I have no doubt it lives again somewhere, or at least parts of it no doubt do. 

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Re: AIR COOLED MEMORIES 2021/03/31 21:58:45 (permalink)
Looked good in the second pic, although it could still have looked like that with the rot in the first pic!
 
Periscope washers - they became worth a fortune a few years back. Until they started being remanufactured.
 
By coincidence, I noticed this earlier today:
 
Classic Porsche 911 Targa 3.0 | eBay
 
Note rectangular hole cut in driver footwell - presumably where VIN was stamped.
 
V5 indicates 1968 coupe!
 
Seriously dodgy

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geedee
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Re: AIR COOLED MEMORIES 2021/04/01 07:06:36 (permalink)
Seriously dodgy does not quite cover it  Alistair, though it could be that the metal "slot" was just a case of adding lightness, as the 911 may have been modified to race spec along with being updated to later IB  appearance at some time in the past...or NOT...???? 
For sure there are some really dodgy folk in Porsche circles, even club related too it seems, thinking of the many sorry stories related to the so called Yorkshire Triangle..???  Some poor soul will think that eBay offering is a BARGAIN.     Compare the eBay 911 to that of my personal air cooled monetary evaluation datum, set by my pal buying his sub 100k mile 924 in GR with black interior from a specialist dealer in 2009 for £16k, a Porsche he still owns and greatly enjoys today.
For sure buying an old Porsche can be a minefield for the unwary.   At least when I acquired my 912, I had a good idea that it would take some time to nail it back together to get it to MOT standard, in places the many layers of  paint were thicker than the metal, the thickest parts being the structural filler..!  For sure I learned the hard way too. Bob`s Targa was at least held together by more than paint, perhaps fortunately so as it was far more structurally sound than before and when it then suffered being written off in a shunt..
While typing of learning... As I mentioned earlier one of the great pleasures in driving my SC was the way I thought it climbed up on to the cam at circa 4k revs, but it seems I was mistaken in that while there may have been a cam profile effect to some degree, apparently SC engines are known for piston ring wear, in terms of the rings thinning , thus an engine with worn rings can display the same accelerative effect around 4k RPM as the rise in revs also causes a rise in the forces of compression, which gets in behind the worn rings and forces them outward to seal tighter against the walls of the cylinder and increasing acceleration...?  All of which If I have picked it up correctly, came from  Baz of Hartech, a well known engineer in terms of  re- engineering water cooled Porsche engines to resolve issues such as "D" shaped chunks breaking off cylinders, bore scoring and not forgetting IMS issues etc..  Baz seems to be quite THE expert and a helpful chap by all accounts.
geedee
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Re: AIR COOLED MEMORIES 2021/04/02 08:42:32 (permalink)
As I think I may have typed earlier, I am not much of a fan of the Turbo spoiler on a narrow body SC but my pal Graham wanted one fitted to my black 77 when he bought it. I think the whale tail provides a more balanced look..and these days having "matured" somewhat, I lean towards the original cleaner lines of the SC looking more akin to the earlier 911`s...Each to their own.

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