Advanced Drivers - road position on narrow roads?

[cobnut]

A thousand years ago when I was learning to drive, my brother-in-law (who held an Advanced License) taught me that when appropriate I should drive on the crown of the road to (in his words) "see and be seen". Obviously there are lots of "non-appropriate" situations, but I'm particularly interested in the case of narrow lanes with no centre markings.

For example, if I'm on such a road with good forward visibility and no oncoming or following traffic, I'll sit on the crown or, if there is no discernable crown, the middle of the road.

My specific question is whether there's any law that says you must drive to the left on roads like this - narrow straights with long visibility and no other vehicles. I've seen many, many drivers hugging the left on a completely empty road, often to the extent of their nearside wheels hitting drains and broken verges (and no, it's not because I'm in an aggressive "I want to overtake" position).

Can anyone give a definitive answer? I ask because when talking about this I'm often told "No, you must drive on the left all the time, everywhere, no exceptions" (or similar words).

Jon

 

[RadioRayson]

Dear Jon,

I am a member of the IAM thus am an 'advanced driver' apparently. I hold licences for motorbikes, cars, HGV 1 & 2, and PCV (buses). I currently drive buses for Oxford Bus Co. What I was shown, and what I do, is to drive according to the conditions. If you are on a clear road with nothing behind you or coming at you, then allow yourself some room and move towards the middle of the road, particularly if the road you are on is small and narrow. You need room in the same way that a vehicle coming the other way needs room, so be alert and ready to slow down and move to the left if your equivalent driver is coming the other way. Indeed, if there is a vehicle coming the other way, or there is a vehicle behind you wanting to overtake, then to take room towards the middle of the road would be unsafe and irresponsible. This is not a definite answer, for I think there isn't one. Can I suggest you sign up for a course with the Institute of Advanced Motorists (IAM)? They are a fine bunch of people, very friendly and will show you that you know more about driving than you realise, and will hone your driving skills and answer the sort of questions you have posed with this post. https://www.iamroadsmart.com

Best wishes,

Adrian

PCGB 64911

 

[dpoynton]

Jon

I agree with what Adrian says, be alert and if road conditions and traffic permit, use the road as necessary to avoid any potholes, drain covers etc.

If one has passed the IAM driving test, and I think the same applies to ROSPA, then you receive a certificate to say so, I have mine for cars and motorbikes but you do NOT hold an advanced licence, I'm not aware of any such thing for a civilian.

Some insurance companies may offer a small discount on your premium if you have passed the IAM/ROSPA tests.

ATB David

 

[911hillclimber]

Just use common sense maybe?

I would drive in the middle with nothing close behind and nothing in front down a lane.

A car hitting pot holes and ditches etc is not a safe car, on the crown tends to keep you out of the parts of the road damaged by others.

When others approach ease in advance to the left and slow looking for passing areas and decide if you are going to stop for the other car.

If so, flash to give the other driver your attention, I also give a stab on the indicator to show my intent to pull over.

This usually get met with a courteous wave, thumbs up and if you are lucky, a nice smile from a good looking lady!

Any pot holes you meet will be at a low speed, so a bonus.

 

[Motorhead]

I agree with everything that's been said, especially with the current state of our roads where potholes and crumbling road edges are the norm. In wet conditions in particular you never know what's hidden under the puddles at the road edge.!

It goes without saying that it's important to position the car on the road to get the best view around an approaching bend ... near the road edge for R/H bends and the road crown for L/H bends (as recommended in the police driver's handbook Roadcraft?).

Jeff

 

[kjhurley]

I can't say I am any kind of expert and I am sure IAM would be able to assist.

Ahead of this, however, I would recommend having a quick look at this guy's videos on YouTube. I believe he is an ex-police driving instructor and whilst the content is somewhat dry, his advice seems pretty sensible, and he does debunk a few myths about advanced driving. He covers a whole raft of topics in some detail, but in terms of your specific query I would check out the ones where he covers cornering.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8fDyubAs3eLup-3COgsyRQ/videos

Hope this is of help.

 

[cobnut]

Thanks for the replies folks! I'd just clarify that I'm not actually looking for advice on how to drive in such situations. I'm always open to new learning but in this particular case I'm looking for the specific laws or regulations that cover driving position on a road with no lane markings or other traffic.

I ask because when the topic comes up in conversation (either in reality or in social media), the defence of those that hug the nearside is always "the law says we must drive on the left!". The best counter-argument would be to be able to say "but the law also says that where no centre lane is marked, and it is safe to do so, you should use an appropriate road position (etc. etc.)", but I can't find anything like this. There seems to be no specific legal guidance for this type of road. It's pretty clear to me (and I imagine to everyone here) that driving along an empty road with your nearside wheels scraping the edge of the road surface is not a wise position for lots of reasons, but the "we must drive on the left" argument is hard to counter without something in writing that provides another option. Jon

 

[tjb]

White lines mark the centre of the carriageway and provide information in terms of hazard warning.

Apart from some limited circumstances it is illegal to cross a continuous white line which you will be aware of.

Otherwise there is no regulation to prevent you crossing Centre white lines providing it is safe to do so.

The information about holding a centre position to gain maximum forward observation when there is no opposing traffic is as you say part of advanced training techniques.

In the absence of any centre carriageway markings there are no restrictions as to the position of your vehicle taking into account obvious safety measures from having an accident or causing an accident.

 

[911hillclimber]

I don't know to a law that says you must drive on the left on an unmarked (centreline) of the road.

A country lane prob is almost a single track road, there is no centre line marking, so you position to be safe and sound and travel at an appropriate speed etc.

I was told as a L driver, drive as fast as you can see up to the prevailing speed limit.

That can save you hitting pushbikes on a lane!

Interesting question posed by the OP, there are probably other un-clear driving issues.

 

[Motorhead]

All a bit academic really. Rules need to be enforced, and when did you last see a traffic police car - period - and more specifically, actually policing traffic rather than chasing drug dealers, drunk, drugged, banned, unlicensed or uninsured drivers? []

Incidentally, whenever it’s safe to do so I always ‘straight-line‘ 2-lane roundabouts. If I’m crossing a solid white line road marking on the roundabout I assume that’s illegal, although it’s probably safer because of the smaller steering inputs.

I can’t find my copy, but I’m not sure that the Highway Code provides much information on the subject.

Jeff

 

[AndrewT]

Interesting question posed by the OP, there are probably other un-clear driving issues.

The road outside our village school has it’s outer edges by the kerb painted with a solid white line, I always thought it meant you shouldn’t park there or cross it except where it is a broken white line, this doesn’t seem to bother the parents who park there!

I’ve searched the internet for clarification and it appears that nowadays the white line is just there to mark the edge of the road, makes me wonder why it’s there at all when there is a kerb there?

 

[adrian55]

A local village has solid white lines down both sides of the road varying from 3 inches to a foot away from the pavement - looks like somebody painted them while under the

influence [] But it was done intentionally to make road appear narrower to slow traffic down !

 

[cobnut]

Thanks again for all the replies. It does seem that this is one of those things that simply isn't specifically covered in law or even in official guidance. Just at the weekend, I watched another person bumping their car along the edge of a country road, literally brushing the vegetation as they went along, even though the road was clear for at least half a mile and I was a hundred metres back or so. I do wonder how they'd get on if they tried to claim for a damaged tyre/wheel? I've been successful in this twice (out of 5 or 6 flats from potholes), and in all cases there were detailed questions about speed and road position. I'd imagine that if the hole was to the far left of the carriageway and the road was empty, the council might well ask why the driver was in that position. Anyway, at least I don't think I have to change 35+ years of driving style (not for that, at least)

J

 

[Wollemi]

I am as certain as one can be that there is no law in the UK that says you have to only drive on the left of the road.

When I had some fast road driving tuition (from an ex police driving instructor) I was encouraged to make use of as much of the road as was safe and necessary. “Reg Local“ who used to teach the police instructors, says the same in his videos and his book, which is a good read. John Lyon, the guru of high speed driver training also advocates using all the road when safe to do so.

Other countries may be different, I think that you have to stay on the right in the USA, but since since i have no intention of going there ever I don’t care.

 

[Gazza3501]

[/quote]

Thanks for the replies folks! I'd just clarify that I'm not actually looking for advice on how to drive in such situations. I'm always open to new learning but in this particular case I'm looking for the specific laws or regulations that cover driving position on a road with no lane markings or other traffic.

I ask because when the topic comes up in conversation (either in reality or in social media), the defence of those that hug the nearside is always "the law says we must drive on the left!". The best counter-argument would be to be able to say "but the law also says that where no centre lane is marked, and it is safe to do so, you should use an appropriate road position (etc. etc.)", but I can't find anything like this. There seems to be no specific legal guidance for this type of road. It's pretty clear to me (and I imagine to everyone here) that driving along an empty road with your nearside wheels scraping the edge of the road surface is not a wise position for lots of reasons, but the "we must drive on the left" argument is hard to counter without something in writing that provides another option. Jon

Your looking for something that isn't there.

The Highway Code (rule 160)is "keep to the left unless signs or markings indicate otherwise. Exceptions are when turning right, overtaking or passing parked vehicles/obstructions etc

Nothing wrong with using all of the road when it's safe to do so but having said that if I had a traffic Police car following, I wouldn't tempt fate and straight line a twisty section of road too severely (even with clear visibility) because it's down to their interpretation as to whether or not you are driving in a manor likely to endanger the public.

Common sense is the name of the game.