Bore Scoring

[pfowler1]

I recently watched a YouTube video on bore scoring and am now concerned that I have it. One of the symptoms described by Flat6 Innovations in their video series on the subject is a ticking noise at idle, a bit like a sticky hydraulic tappet, which they say never happens, or very rarely, on Boxsters.
I just wondered if anyone else had had bore scoring confirmed on their 987.1 and if so did they experience the ticking at idle when warm?
Hoping to hear from lots of members on this scary topic.
Thanks

 

[911hillclimber]

Just my thoughts:

I would be worried too, BUT, I would suggest that you take the car to a specialist in the cars and get the full inspection done.

They should have good experience of the sound and what/where to look in the cylinders and advise you from there with the facts in front of you both.

I too have read lots on the subject and the ticking as a tell-tale sign, but an inspection by a real specialist imho is the first step.

Hope this helps.

Graham.

 

[Macan360]

Hi

i had a problem with a ticking noise on my Cayman 4 years ago that lasted for about 45 minutes at idle which was thought to be bore scoring.

Luckily my Porsche OPC decided to try an oil change first.

The problem went away and has never returned.

Theory is crap got stuck in the tapped preventing oil getting in.

I know the horrible feeling in your stomach you are feeling.

May not be as bad you think

Are both sides of the exhaust the same shade of black. Normally the left side is darker if it’s bore scoring. That’s what made my OPC doubt their original diagnosis. Mine wasn’t. Ultimately a bore scope is the only way to rule it out.

Trevor.

 

[Dylan1]

I just used a shedload of oil !!!

 

[Roger Goode]

When my 987.1 Boxster S hasn’t been started for several weeks it isn’t uncommon for it to make the noise you describe. I’m firmly of the belief that it is nothing more than an oil starved tappet because once the engine has warmed up fully the sound disappears and I don’t hear it again until it hasn’t been started for several weeks. Interestingly the car was recently parked for 5 weeks facing up a slope of about 30 degrees whilst I was incarcerated in hospital following an inconvenient heart attack. When I started the car there wasn't any tapping. Being parked on the slope may or may not not have the reason. It and I are now firing on all cylinders without any strange noises!

 

[Craiglm68]

There's ticking...then there's ticking! Fair to say many (most?) 987's have some sort of background ticking on the go from time to time, whether warm up, or once warm (or both). Other symptoms are potentially more indicative (e.g. excess oil usage, excess smoke (though could be an AOS for example), dirty exhaust tip)....as mentioned, bore scope is the best option (so long as done by someone reputable/knows what they're doing....misdiagnoses are not unheard of!). And depending on the mileage/age of your car, there will be some normal wear and tear.

As a side note, I'm on a few 987 focused Facebook groups, I ran a poll on one recently (over 3K members) re whether anyone had directly experienced a severe bore or IMS issue (or directly knew someone who had)....out of the responses, circa 2% had had some sort of issue (not always terminal) relating to one or the other...not exactly scientific, but fair to say the incidence of such events is much lower than the hyperbole might suggest.

 

[pfowler1]

Thank you to all who have responded. Perhaps I over exagerated the issue, having been scared off by the YouTube video.

My car does have a ticking from the nearside bank when warm but does not consume large amounts of oil, nor does it have a sooty exhaust (being a Boxster it only has one exhaust outlet so can't compare left and right like a 911).

You are right the only way to tell for sure is to have a borescope inspection and I will think about that. My car is almost on 100,000 miles now and I do expect the odd noise and wear of course. I changed the AOS last year but can't see any difference. I still get smoke bombs on start up occasionally and that could possibly be a symptom of bore scoring, along with other things. I change my oil annually before winter storage irrespective of the mileage.

I was very interested to read about the Facebook pole on whether people had experienced bore or IMS issues and it is reassuring to hear only 2% have.

Paul

 

[Motorhead]

Paul,

As Craig has pointed out, the F-6 engines are prone to a lot of ticking noises when cold and hot - " like a bag of nails" comes to mind! The boxer layout doesn't help in that respect because sound radiated from a significant area of the engine is reflected off the ground and straight out the sides of the car. Compare that with an in-line or V configuration where the engine is encapsulated in the engine bay and where under-bonnet and bulkhead treatment can help attenuate radiated sound.

Smoking on start-up is something that's reported regularly - once again a result of the boxer configuration where oil can collect in the bores/combustion chamber, only to be burnt-off when you fire up the engine.

Also I'd agree that the only way to discover if you have any bore scoring is to get a borescope inspection performed by an experienced Porsche specialist. Even if there is evidence of scoring, if you're not using a lot of oil then you can make an informed decision as to whether or not it's worth doing anything about it. Incidentally, I believe that scoring is less likely on the 2.7L 987.1.

Jeff

 

[Pitchley]

I have been told that I have bore scoring! I bought the car (‘05 Boxster 987s) in August 2017. Soon after I noticed a fairly loud tapping noise, but only when it’s warmed up. I’ve done about 4K miles and never had to top up the oil! Could it be something else?

 

[911hillclimber]

Who told you?

Man in a pub or a real specialist?

The only way is to have the bores looked at by one-who-knows. If you talk to specialist independents, it is surprising how rare these things are, or turn out to be something different.

As to smoke on start ups....boy, I've been through this. (987.2) and well documented last year on here.

My new OPC AOS failed after 4 months, new OPC unit still working and no smoke.

If the failure of the AOS was severe (diaphram split) then the tubes etc to the inlet of the engine will be contaminated with neat oil and will take time to drain and be burnt off progressively to nothing.

Normal engine running will do this over time. After doing the AOS I ran the car quite hard for 100 miles or so.

YouTube stuff will scare the socks off you, so get to a good indie who knows Boxsters by year and their issues.

I am lucky to have such an Indie in Zuffenhaus, south Birmingham, who are hands-on more than car sales. Choose your indie carefully.

 

[Motorhead]

David,

I think it's easy to get over-anxious about this subject - as Graham says, it's important to get informed advice from an expert source. In general the Porsche Independents probably will have more experience of working on the older cars than the Porsche Centres.

You don't mention your car's mileage (always useful in a post of this kind!), but if you're not burning oil it's a good sign that even if some bore scoring is present it's not a major problem at the moment, although a borescope examination certainly would help to allay any fears in that respect.

As mentioned in my previous post (#8), the boxer engines are prone to ticking noises both at idle when cold and also when warm. It's very variable too; my 987.2 Cayman S is sometimes quiet on tick-over but a bit "ticky" after a 30-mile run, and visa versa, so it's difficult to generalise. The knocking noise you mention could be due to a number of things, very much dependent upon the mileage - from tappet wear to big-end bearing wear, piston slap, etc., the sort of thing that happens on older engine in general. I'm not sure what oil you're using (0W-40 will be recommended) but you could try a slightly heavier grade to see if that helps.

Jeff

 

[pfowler1]

Jeff,

I think you are correct to mention those other possible sources of engine noise and particularly the oil issue of 0W-40 being a bit light for the older engine. I’ve been thinking this for a while now and have discussed it with more experienced people in my local Porsche Club. I plan to change to a slightly heavier 5W-40 at my next oil change to see if that makes a difference. That may need to wait a while as I just changed it it October last year and have only done a couple of hundred miles since then.

Has anyone moved up to 10W-40? I’d be interested to hear how that went.

cheers

Paul

 

[andywill]

Hi Paul

After your 100K there’s bound to be a few more engine noises, and you don’t seem to be suffering from any of the main symptoms apart from the ticking (you don’t mention how clean the oil looks),

What I would do prior to changing the oil is I would do an engine flush to hopefully clean out tappets etc with one of the products below.

https://www.wynns.eu/category/consumer/consumer-oil-system/

Then as you say then go for 5w-40 or even 10w-40, If noise was still there I would possible add one of their other additives,

Easier said than done but try to put bore scoring out of your mind unless you get more symptoms.

Good luck

Andy

 

[pfowler1]

Hi Andy,

thanks for your response and you’re probably right to expect some more engine noises after 100k miles. I already do use engine flush when I do an oil change and if I remember correctly it was quite dirty at the last change and that was only after about 6k miles since the previous change.

I might give Wynns a try next time but I think the one I used did get some muck out. I didn’t realise there was a specific cleaner for hydraulic tappets and I might try that one. I have already bought 5W-40 oil in preparation for the next oil change and am hopeful it will make it run quieter.

I’m still interested to hear from anyone who’s used a 10W-40 oil and if it was reckoned to be a good choice.

Paul.

 

[CLIFFWILKINS]

Good advice from Andy. []

 

[J99NNO]

Hi all

It may be helpful, and it is also a blatant plug, for our Hartech Zoom meeting on 18th January. I organised this as a 997 event but all are welcome, as the main topic of the talk will be bore score as well as IMS, so may we’ll answer lots of questions you may have. Hartech have lots of examples we can show of pistons and liners so you can see exactly what is going on inside your engine! Details can be found in the link below.

https://www.porscheclubgb.com/regions-registers/registers/modern/997/events/2022/january/hartech-zoom-talk

 

[Motorhead]

Just to add that there are oil-spray nozzles directed at the underside of the pistons primarily for cooling purposes (although some oil is bound to find its way onto the cylinder walls), but they’re only active above 2,000rpm so it’s important to keep the revs up when the engine’s cold and not allow the engine to labour in a high gear.

Jeff

 

[andywill]

Hi Glen

Personally I would not start the car and run on idle till it’s warmed up on a regular basis, letting the car idle to warm it up is about the worst you can do IMHO.

The quicker you got the oil up to temp the better for the engine. Letting it warm up on idle only does one thing... it takes longer to warm up (since the engine isn't working but just idling) and it thus just wastes fuel which can also contaminate the oil and only pollutes the nearby air needlessly.

If you’re not going to drive it then there’s no point in starting it, get a good battery conditioner and pick a good day for a little run out, even more essential if you have a Tip or PDK as they should warm up together.

These are just my thoughts.

Andy

 

[Motorhead]

Understood Glen. Although not ideal, I don’t have a fundamental problem with your warm-up regime mainly because the engine’s not under a significant load, and you could argue that it’s much better to circulate the oil and coolant on a regular basis and to exercise the moving parts rather than just let the car sit for months without using it.

However it’s important to remember that a) the engine and - importantly from the emissions standpoint - the cats will warm-up faster when the car’s driven because the engine will be under load and b) it takes much longer for the oil to reach full operating temperature (up to 10 miles?), so clearly actually driving the car has significant benefits, including the early activation of the oil-spray nozzles I mentioned in my post.

After starting the engine and waiting for the engine to settle back to the normal idle speed around 750rpm I like to drive the car away, keeping the revs above 2,000 and limiting them to 3,000-3,500 at least until the coolant temperature has reached 80 degC, but the most important thing is to avoid low speed in a high gear.

Just my tuppence worth of course and others will have other opinions.

Jeff

 

[Motorhead]

Very pleased to hear that my comments have been useful Glen, although as I said it’s just a personal opinion which is very much in accord with what Andy has said.

I think that the most important recommendation from both of us is to use the car as much as possible which, in addition to running the engine, will exercise the transmission, steering and suspension systems as well as the tyres. Weather and conditions permitting, hopefully you can get out and drive it every week or fortnight for a 20 mile run or so even if the roads in your area have been salted. If that’s your main concern it’s important to remember that our cars are well-protected from the elements and that a post-run wash down should remove any traces.

Like you I keep my battery on permanent conditioning when the car’s not in use. Our forums are full of posts with reports of electrical gremlins due to faulty batteries and low voltage levels! []

Jeff