As the title really, does the 987.2 have the same engine design as the 981 Boxsters, or were things changed, and if so in what way please?
Thanks,
Graham.
Thanks,
Graham.
987.2 and the 981: Same engine?
- Thread starter 911hillclimber
- Start date
Graham,
The 3.4L engine basically is the same in both series, although there may be have been a small power hike in the 981. The base engine in the 987.2 was non-DFI and of 2.9L capacity whereas that in the 981 was DFI but with a capacity of 2.7L.
All engines were of the updated design in which, along with other improvements, the intermediate shaft was deleted.
Jeff
The 3.4L engine basically is the same in both series, although there may be have been a small power hike in the 981. The base engine in the 987.2 was non-DFI and of 2.9L capacity whereas that in the 981 was DFI but with a capacity of 2.7L.
All engines were of the updated design in which, along with other improvements, the intermediate shaft was deleted.
Jeff
Thank you Jeff, helpful as ever!
Have recently contemplated a 981 (2.7) instead of my 987.2, but if both engines are the same construction is there a real risk of the cold start smoke still.
I bought the car because it had the IMS deleted and seemed to miss the bore score of the larger engines.
Forgotten the 987.2 / 2.9 was not direct injection, wonder if that has any bearing on my 'issue'.
Graham.
Have recently contemplated a 981 (2.7) instead of my 987.2, but if both engines are the same construction is there a real risk of the cold start smoke still.
I bought the car because it had the IMS deleted and seemed to miss the bore score of the larger engines.
Forgotten the 987.2 / 2.9 was not direct injection, wonder if that has any bearing on my 'issue'.
Graham.
Power Figures Courtesy of Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_987 & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_981
987
2.9 256 PS (Boxster) or 265 PS (Cayman)
3.4 310 PS (Boxster) or 320 PS (Cayman)
981
2.7 261 PS (Boxster) or 275 PS (Cayman)
3.4 S 315 PS (Boxster) or 325 PS (Cayman)
3.4 GTS 330 PS (Boxster) or 340 PS (Cayman)
From what I understand they are all the same base 9A1.
987
2.9 256 PS (Boxster) or 265 PS (Cayman)
3.4 310 PS (Boxster) or 320 PS (Cayman)
981
2.7 261 PS (Boxster) or 275 PS (Cayman)
3.4 S 315 PS (Boxster) or 325 PS (Cayman)
3.4 GTS 330 PS (Boxster) or 340 PS (Cayman)
From what I understand they are all the same base 9A1.
911hillclimber said:
Graham,
I wouldn't think the absence of DFI on the 2.7L engine could have any bearing on your smoking issue, but who knows? I'm sure you've been scanning the web to see if the problem is more prevalent on the non-DFI engine.
All Gen2 engines have the same Alusil aluminium alloy crankcase (rather than the Lockasil method used in the earlier cars) which addressed the bore scoring issue, but although I'm not aware of the Gen2 cars having bore scoring issues that doesn't mean there couldn't be the occasional problem. Have you had your engine checked for bore scoring?
I note from your other post that currently you're smoke free, so fingers crossed it stays that way.
Jeff
Thanks both, I have the car going to Zuffenhaus for its 60K service this Thursday, so will see what a bore check might cost.
In the mean time I'm using the Box almost as a daily driver to tease a smoke escape, but 10 starts in all is clear.
This is frustratingly difficult to clearly find the reason for this issue, but time will tell.
I had thought of going 981 to get away from it but as the engine is the same why would the 981 be smoke free?
In the mean time I'm using the Box almost as a daily driver to tease a smoke escape, but 10 starts in all is clear.
This is frustratingly difficult to clearly find the reason for this issue, but time will tell.
I had thought of going 981 to get away from it but as the engine is the same why would the 981 be smoke free?
AndrewT
Member
Graham,
As I've previously mentioned my previous 2.9 had the same smoking problem as your car, very embarrasing in a public place but apparently it had no ill effect on performance or oil consumption. I was aware of the problem when I bought the car so paid a lower price than I would have had i not known about the problem. The previous owner had observed that the smoke started at around 55k miles, he reported the problem to Porsche as he had an extended warranty but they did nothing as they couldn't repeat the problem - that's not surprising because both you and I have found that it only occurs when a specific procedure is followed and even then it doesn't always happen. I used to hillclimb that car at Gurston where the paddock is on a slope yet I only experienced smoke on starup once at that location.
When I bought my 2.9 I sent it to Brookspeed for a borescope inspection, they reported that they couldn't see any scoring. When I had the AOS changed I also had an oil change and a slightly thicker Mobil 1 was used, I think both of those actions had a beneficial effect but did not cure the problem. I wondered whether it would be possible to rig up some sort of oil catch tank to ensure no oil vapour could get from the crankcase to the inlet manifold? I was sure I'd read on a forum somewhere how someone had modified their AOS but I've searched and cannot find anything. I no longer have the 2.9 Cayman.
Jeff mentioned that the DFI probably has no bearing on the smoke. I'd tend to agree with that: my 35k miles 987.2 S (with DFI) was serviced (by my local OPC) shortly before my UK tour this year, the oil indicator showed all bars. After 500 or so miles and about 300 miles into my tour my car smoked on startup after an overnight stop, I'd arived at the hotel after a gentle drive in standard PDK automatic mode (I usually use Sport mode) during the parking manouvre I'd switched off then restarted in order to reposition the car, circumstances which are very similar to those which you and I observed in the 2.9 engined cars. The following day after another gentle drive I'd parked on a steep slope and it smoked again on startup. Some 3,500 miles later and it has never smoked again despite frequent stop/starting for sightseeing during my tour, neither has it done it when just driving in/out of my garage such as when washing the car. I'm quite confident that the car had been overfilled with oil.
I wonder whether the piston rings in your engine are a bit gummed up and sticking, perhaps there's a potion you can add to the oil in your engine which might be able to clean the pistons and rings?
As I've previously mentioned my previous 2.9 had the same smoking problem as your car, very embarrasing in a public place but apparently it had no ill effect on performance or oil consumption. I was aware of the problem when I bought the car so paid a lower price than I would have had i not known about the problem. The previous owner had observed that the smoke started at around 55k miles, he reported the problem to Porsche as he had an extended warranty but they did nothing as they couldn't repeat the problem - that's not surprising because both you and I have found that it only occurs when a specific procedure is followed and even then it doesn't always happen. I used to hillclimb that car at Gurston where the paddock is on a slope yet I only experienced smoke on starup once at that location.
When I bought my 2.9 I sent it to Brookspeed for a borescope inspection, they reported that they couldn't see any scoring. When I had the AOS changed I also had an oil change and a slightly thicker Mobil 1 was used, I think both of those actions had a beneficial effect but did not cure the problem. I wondered whether it would be possible to rig up some sort of oil catch tank to ensure no oil vapour could get from the crankcase to the inlet manifold? I was sure I'd read on a forum somewhere how someone had modified their AOS but I've searched and cannot find anything. I no longer have the 2.9 Cayman.
Jeff mentioned that the DFI probably has no bearing on the smoke. I'd tend to agree with that: my 35k miles 987.2 S (with DFI) was serviced (by my local OPC) shortly before my UK tour this year, the oil indicator showed all bars. After 500 or so miles and about 300 miles into my tour my car smoked on startup after an overnight stop, I'd arived at the hotel after a gentle drive in standard PDK automatic mode (I usually use Sport mode) during the parking manouvre I'd switched off then restarted in order to reposition the car, circumstances which are very similar to those which you and I observed in the 2.9 engined cars. The following day after another gentle drive I'd parked on a steep slope and it smoked again on startup. Some 3,500 miles later and it has never smoked again despite frequent stop/starting for sightseeing during my tour, neither has it done it when just driving in/out of my garage such as when washing the car. I'm quite confident that the car had been overfilled with oil.
I wonder whether the piston rings in your engine are a bit gummed up and sticking, perhaps there's a potion you can add to the oil in your engine which might be able to clean the pistons and rings?
Graham,
Andrew's comment about his CS smoking after a service leads me to throw in a thought here. These electronic oil level indicators are great but there's no guarantee they're actually correct - whatever happened to manual dipsticks..? I suppose it's possible that your oil level is actually on the high side even though the indicator's showing the correct level, so it would perhaps be advisable to get Zuffenhaus to be extremely vigilant when they carry out your oil chance; maybe even putting in slightly less oil so that it's one bar down on the indicator.
Jeff
Andrew's comment about his CS smoking after a service leads me to throw in a thought here. These electronic oil level indicators are great but there's no guarantee they're actually correct - whatever happened to manual dipsticks..? I suppose it's possible that your oil level is actually on the high side even though the indicator's showing the correct level, so it would perhaps be advisable to get Zuffenhaus to be extremely vigilant when they carry out your oil chance; maybe even putting in slightly less oil so that it's one bar down on the indicator.
Jeff
I agree, I think there can be many factors as to how these cars interpret how much oil there is in the car. Mine some times says full and then at other times the notch is one down.
When I first had the car It went a notch down and the place I bought it from told me what oil I needed, so I topped it up. I must have put slightly too much in as when the car had just been on a good run it sometimes said it was overfull and then other times spot on full. I explained to the company what I did and showed how much I used and they said it won't be massively overfull so not to worry. I found over time as the excess oil burnt off it would be more consistent.
But now I will only top up when it goes two notches down to be on the safe side.
Mike
When I first had the car It went a notch down and the place I bought it from told me what oil I needed, so I topped it up. I must have put slightly too much in as when the car had just been on a good run it sometimes said it was overfull and then other times spot on full. I explained to the company what I did and showed how much I used and they said it won't be massively overfull so not to worry. I found over time as the excess oil burnt off it would be more consistent.
But now I will only top up when it goes two notches down to be on the safe side.
Mike
One bar on the dash is about 0.4 L.
According to the handbook the level is correct (Zuff did the last oil change) that is one bar 'empty' with those under it blackened out.
The car has never needed oil in the 3 years I've owned it.
I intend to chat to Paul and Chris about dropping a bar when re-filling at the service. However, the oil level with a stopped engine is well below the bores of the engine so not sure just what a lower level will do unless the gauge is very inaccurate. Bring back a dipstick.
To the smoke:
There is a simple mod you can do to have the engine vent to atmosphere, rather like a motorsport engine vents to a catch can that is open to the air. There is space to do this on the 2.9 right by the air filter. Not sure how the sensors (if any) might react to this mod, popular in the USA though of course 'illegal'.
Some weeks ago I stopped over in mid Wales, parked after a nice day cruising on a level car park. A few minutes after I moved the car away from the 4x4 that parked next to me with 3 mad children and the next sot was on a steep slope, so engine ran for 2 mins while moving.
Next morning, cold start and a huge plume of smoke....the gardener looked shocked and coughed a lot. So, short run, slope, smoke.
If the oil was seeping past one/some of the piston rings then it would happen many times/every time?
Obviously when the engine stops there is still oil under pressure going everywhere inside the engine for a short time so some oil must puddle in all the bores under the pistons. I do wonder if one or more set of rings have moved round their piston to align some of the ring gaps at the bottom of the cylinder allowing a gateway for oil to seep in. I will never know!
I'm driving my car now like my Skoda Superb, do a journey stop and allow a few seconds before turning off instead of about 10/15 secs ticking over to minimise the oil flying about inside.
12 starts and counting (how sad) and no smoke.
It will be interesting to see what Zuff say.
The AOS that they fitted (I supplied) 12 months ago I replaced 2 weeks ago. Inside the AOS nothing was wrong, no split diaphragm etc.
Bloody thing.
According to the handbook the level is correct (Zuff did the last oil change) that is one bar 'empty' with those under it blackened out.
The car has never needed oil in the 3 years I've owned it.
I intend to chat to Paul and Chris about dropping a bar when re-filling at the service. However, the oil level with a stopped engine is well below the bores of the engine so not sure just what a lower level will do unless the gauge is very inaccurate. Bring back a dipstick.
To the smoke:
There is a simple mod you can do to have the engine vent to atmosphere, rather like a motorsport engine vents to a catch can that is open to the air. There is space to do this on the 2.9 right by the air filter. Not sure how the sensors (if any) might react to this mod, popular in the USA though of course 'illegal'.
Some weeks ago I stopped over in mid Wales, parked after a nice day cruising on a level car park. A few minutes after I moved the car away from the 4x4 that parked next to me with 3 mad children and the next sot was on a steep slope, so engine ran for 2 mins while moving.
Next morning, cold start and a huge plume of smoke....the gardener looked shocked and coughed a lot. So, short run, slope, smoke.
If the oil was seeping past one/some of the piston rings then it would happen many times/every time?
Obviously when the engine stops there is still oil under pressure going everywhere inside the engine for a short time so some oil must puddle in all the bores under the pistons. I do wonder if one or more set of rings have moved round their piston to align some of the ring gaps at the bottom of the cylinder allowing a gateway for oil to seep in. I will never know!
I'm driving my car now like my Skoda Superb, do a journey stop and allow a few seconds before turning off instead of about 10/15 secs ticking over to minimise the oil flying about inside.
12 starts and counting (how sad) and no smoke.
It will be interesting to see what Zuff say.
The AOS that they fitted (I supplied) 12 months ago I replaced 2 weeks ago. Inside the AOS nothing was wrong, no split diaphragm etc.
Bloody thing.
Huge caveat of "your mileage may vary”
987.2 2.9 53k on the clock 11k I have covered.
serviced before I bought it. Over filled according to gauge. Very top block filled in.
never smoked. Driven regularly not especially hard (no track time) but enjoyed when out Not shy of pdk foot to the floor.
now registering "normal”. Top block not filled in.
I have heard and read "they all do it". Mates (987.1) does
occasionally. Mine doesn’t. So far.
there is also an active thread over on boxa.net talking about 981 2.7 vs 987 2.9. in addition to the differences (dfI) mentioned there is also apparently the 2.7 doesn’t need an aux pump making the plumbing simpler.
2.9 vs 3.4 also has different ecu apparently.
987.2 2.9 53k on the clock 11k I have covered.
serviced before I bought it. Over filled according to gauge. Very top block filled in.
never smoked. Driven regularly not especially hard (no track time) but enjoyed when out Not shy of pdk foot to the floor.
now registering "normal”. Top block not filled in.
I have heard and read "they all do it". Mates (987.1) does
occasionally. Mine doesn’t. So far.
there is also an active thread over on boxa.net talking about 981 2.7 vs 987 2.9. in addition to the differences (dfI) mentioned there is also apparently the 2.7 doesn’t need an aux pump making the plumbing simpler.
2.9 vs 3.4 also has different ecu apparently.
AndrewT
Member
When you next get the oil changed might it be worth getting a sample analysed? Any metallic contaminants found could indicate...... something? Not that analysis would actually solve the problem but it might allay concerns about bore scoring.
The link below has a post from Brian Innes who recently had an oil analysis done.
https://www.porscheclubgb.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1015965&mpage=30
The link below has a post from Brian Innes who recently had an oil analysis done.
https://www.porscheclubgb.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1015965&mpage=30
Graham,
You're correct in saying that when stationary the oil level in the sump will be well below that of the bores, so filling below the correct level shouldn't make any difference.
When the engine's running there will be a degree of splash on the bores from the crank and gudgeon pin regions, plus there are the piston cooling spray nozzles in the crankcase, but they will be inoperative at low speeds (below 2,000rpm?). However, there will always be a small quantity of oil pooling in the bores owing to the boxer configuration which could make its way past the piston rings, and of course a small amount of oil could get past the valve guides and into the combustion chambers.
I suppose you could always run a series of compression checks for ring and valve guide leakage, but I'm not sure it would help much other than to give you peace of mind that all's well in that respect. From what you say, the engine's running well and not using any oil or smoking other than on start-up, so I guess that it's best to just try and put the problem to the back of your mind and enjoy driving the car.
Jeff
You're correct in saying that when stationary the oil level in the sump will be well below that of the bores, so filling below the correct level shouldn't make any difference.
When the engine's running there will be a degree of splash on the bores from the crank and gudgeon pin regions, plus there are the piston cooling spray nozzles in the crankcase, but they will be inoperative at low speeds (below 2,000rpm?). However, there will always be a small quantity of oil pooling in the bores owing to the boxer configuration which could make its way past the piston rings, and of course a small amount of oil could get past the valve guides and into the combustion chambers.
I suppose you could always run a series of compression checks for ring and valve guide leakage, but I'm not sure it would help much other than to give you peace of mind that all's well in that respect. From what you say, the engine's running well and not using any oil or smoking other than on start-up, so I guess that it's best to just try and put the problem to the back of your mind and enjoy driving the car.
Jeff
Ha!
your last sentence sounds like my wife!
I will be happy when the smoke issue is a rare occurrence or gone and when I feel I have an explanation of what causes it rather than the aos has failed.
Service tomorrow and a chat with the people at Zuffenhaus, but I think the bottom line will be as your last sentence too.
your last sentence sounds like my wife!
I will be happy when the smoke issue is a rare occurrence or gone and when I feel I have an explanation of what causes it rather than the aos has failed.
Service tomorrow and a chat with the people at Zuffenhaus, but I think the bottom line will be as your last sentence too.
Just back from Zuffenhaus and the car's 60K service, a chat with Paul revealed no hidden theorise about the AOS/white smoke/reasons or anything other than some do it more than others in their experience, but as he said, the car WAS clear after the last AOS and after 6 months it started to creep back in.
Time will tell this time round!
Oil replaced, level correct to the hand book checked just on the level drive, so just going to use it as Porsche intended and see if it coughs again.
Drove like a soaring eagle, screeeeeeams to 7500 rpm, so nice.
Time will tell this time round!
Oil replaced, level correct to the hand book checked just on the level drive, so just going to use it as Porsche intended and see if it coughs again.
Drove like a soaring eagle, screeeeeeams to 7500 rpm, so nice.
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