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Helpful Reply997 Turbo with sudden engine failure and Warrantywise Claim Issues.

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robbosliding
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2019/01/12 13:37:22 (permalink)

997 Turbo with sudden engine failure and Warrantywise Claim Issues.

I have been unfortunate enough to have my over serviced, pampered and prevention maintained car suffer unexpected engine failure. At 36k, running at low revs at a steady and constant 30-40mph the minorist of hesitations was felt that I'd describe as it felt as though a millisecond of fuelling held back. Moments later I then heard over my stereo what sounded like drive belt noise (the minorist of tapping sounds like a wet belt) which moments later turned into a loud mechanical clanking. The engine was immediately stopped and the car was recovered.
Once stripped down below the pistons swarf is prevalent. All the liners are scored, the pistons scored, the No.4 conrod shell bearings have disappeared (now swarf) and the no.4 conrod is a mill out, visibly ovalled. The crank is written off. 
The car had a scavenging oil pump replaced under warranty (Warrantywise , thank you!) at 33k by Sheffield OPC who reported no engine issues at this time. There is no history of wear from regular checks of oil, no metallic matter in the oil and the car has been subject to a scheduled service at 34K (full service history and over serviced mileage wise at Porsche OPC's & Specialists) and the car was seen again Jan 18 for a warranty job on MAF's with no warning lights, no diagnostic indications, no rev range alerts etc etc at £36k. Just sudden and catastrophic engine failure in May 18 with only miles more on the clock, still in the 36k mileage range.
Does anyone know of any circumstance of a maintained 997 turbo at such low mileage (or any mileage ) failing like this?
To add insult to injury ( the repair estimate is £28,000) Warrantywise, who I would describe as being exceptional for the previous 3 years have been with them have assessed it - an "independent assessor" who came, looked and decided with no service or maintenance history available to him that this was not sudden engine failure and was in fact due to "wear and tear of shells" leading to gradual engine failure. Not the result I expected nor expected and to my mind completely wrong and an attempt to dodge a ceiling claim of £5K. The fact the "assessor fails to mention a shell has completely left the building which is fundamental to the presence of swarf  that has caused sudden damage and not slow wear that no one could attribute as there is no  history of contaminated oil, component wear, poor running, diagnostic indications, in fact no warnings at all yet they conclude wear and tear.....on a over serviced 997 Turbo engine with a bullet proof reputation.
I have of course appealed this finding and to Warrantywise's credit they have responded quickly to my complaint and challenge of the integrity and diligence of their independent assessor. They disarmed themselves in the first instance as their dates and mileage was recorded incorrectly and they referenced the MAF dates and mileage in my engine claim which was shoddy admin and poor service given the value and importance of the claim.
I will be sure to post the outcome as I will not accept a finding of "wear and tear" on a 36k engine with a service history that it has to its name. Troubled times from Warrantywise who have to date been exceptional. They can still come good and I hope for me and their reputation that they do. I have posted positive feedback previously about their service......I will be sure to extensive post negative feedback if they shy away from their responsibility. Watch this space.
 
 

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Ianstewartshouse1
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Re: 997 Turbo with sudden engine failure and Warrantywise Claim Issues. 2019/01/12 15:24:45 (permalink)
Nightmare, is it a Gen2 car or the mezger engined Gen1?
 
Hope they come through for you. You mentioned the assessor said there was no service info, did you not have the info from the Indy you used? Or is it a stipulation of the Warrantywise policy for OPC only servicing?
tscaptain
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Re: 997 Turbo with sudden engine failure and Warrantywise Claim Issues. 2019/01/12 17:06:03 (permalink)
I see from previous posts it's a Gen 1 car.  The fact the scavenging oil pump was replaced only 2k miles before this catastrophic failure would raise some alarm bells with me or could just be coincidence.  I hope you get satisfaction with Warrantywise.  £28k sounds a bit pricey to me.  Who gave you that?  Have a word with Hartech and see what they would quite for a turbo rebuild.

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robbosliding
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Re: 997 Turbo with sudden engine failure and Warrantywise Claim Issues. 2019/01/12 19:44:06 (permalink)
Ianstewartshouse1
Nightmare, is it a Gen2 car or the mezger engined Gen1?
 
Hope they come through for you. You mentioned the assessor said there was no service info, did you not have the info from the Indy you used? Or is it a stipulation of the Warrantywise policy for OPC only servicing?


Its a Gen 1 Mezger engine. Warrantywise have the supplied history - the assessor arrived blind and was not in possession of it and reports wear and tear with no mention in his report to Warrantywise of the absent shell......they ask for full service history OPC or specialist, it matters not - personally Specialist sits more comfortably with me.
 

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robbosliding
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Re: 997 Turbo with sudden engine failure and Warrantywise Claim Issues. 2019/01/12 20:08:49 (permalink)
So the scavenging pump - my argument is an OPC replaces the pump paid for by Warrantywise with no mention of contaminated oil  - you would like to think any Porsche technician would spot and raise metallic trace in the oil as an advisory at the very least. 
Renspeed service the car less than 1000 miles later (and makes no mention of metallic trace in the oil)- for the uniformed if shells wear the softer copper coloured shell wears and presents as a copper coloured like glitter lor solution in the oil - Ben at Renspeed builds and reconditions Porsche engines and makes no mention of any oil contamination when servicing. 
The car is later seen by 911 Sport who do a Warrantywise claim on MAF's - they give the car the once over and no oil contamination is found. 
The quote has been discussed with other engine builders - crank, conrods, pistons, liners, oil pump and lots of smaller bits like chains, filters, sonic cleaning, turbo reconditioning (prevention measure due to swarf, no visible damage but not to do so would be stupid) and labour which is extensive. Notwithstanding the time to remove, fully strip the engine and the parts and labour to build the Porsche Specialist 911 Sport advises the price has been compared with other builders in consultation and is within pat of each other though the price may come down with discounted parts and shopping around for parts. The frustration is I will foot this bill and Warrantywise are disputing their 25% contribution. The research has been done. These recon engines on ebay at £8995 are your return engine unit and that price is a base starting figure before replacing or not more parts. 
I would sooner have a zero miles engine with warranty from 911 Sport in my 36k car than a rebuilt from a ebay german engine "specialist" or a donor engine with unknown history from a breakers yard with no warranty and most likely much greater miles. 

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Rodney Naghar
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Re: 997 Turbo with sudden engine failure and Warrantywise Claim Issues. 2019/01/13 10:32:01 (permalink)
When you mention 'no metal traces were found in the oil' after all those garages have had a look at the car. Are you saying that, assuming they'd all be diligently looking at the oil for such traces, or did you specifically ask them to check? Because I would assume no such thing. 
robbosliding
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Re: 997 Turbo with sudden engine failure and Warrantywise Claim Issues. 2019/01/13 19:25:10 (permalink)
I take my car to skilled and experienced techs. If they change oil they will look at it. As I do with my motorbikes every 600-1000 miles at oil change - I track them. If an OPC or Specialist does not check oil when servicing or as part of a "health check" which is on a OPC invoice they are in neglect of their duty. My indy 911 Sport always comment upon checking the oil - hence why I am aware of it. So I don't assume, I know they check it. And given its been seen 6 times in 7000 miles I'd expect some form of visible oil contamination (its had 4 oil changes in this time window) , maybe some form of drop in performance, warning light, advice from a technician to say something was wrong on a 36k engine that is over serviced. Wear and tear my arse.
 

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Smurf991ts
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Re: 997 Turbo with sudden engine failure and Warrantywise Claim Issues. 2019/01/13 19:31:30 (permalink)
You'd be well served getting your car down to Nine Excellence no disrespect to your current Indy but they're not in same league on that platform i.e. mezger. They're one of the best mezger turbo engine builders in the UK.  They should also be cheaper but even if not the engine will be twice as good as before with forged components. No chance you engine failed due to wear and tear.
 
Worth reading this and how warranty claim was dealt with.
 
https://www.pistonheads.c...amp;f=48&t=1298955
post edited by fammy8 - 2019/01/13 19:33:15
Rodney Naghar
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Re: 997 Turbo with sudden engine failure and Warrantywise Claim Issues. 2019/01/13 20:11:28 (permalink)
robbosliding
I take my car to skilled and experienced techs. If they change oil they will look at it. As I do with my motorbikes every 600-1000 miles at oil change - I track them. If an OPC or Specialist does not check oil when servicing or as part of a "health check" which is on a OPC invoice they are in neglect of their duty. My indy 911 Sport always comment upon checking the oil - hence why I am aware of it. So I don't assume, I know they check it. And given its been seen 6 times in 7000 miles I'd expect some form of visible oil contamination (its had 4 oil changes in this time window) , maybe some form of drop in performance, warning light, advice from a technician to say something was wrong on a 36k engine that is over serviced. Wear and tear my arse.
 




First and foremost, I completely agree with you, 'wear and tear' no chance. This is a Mezger engine in it's finest hour, it's as good as they get.
With regard to a lot of Indys checking the oil for swarf I'd be surprised (notwithstanding your 911 Sport experience). If an OPC did it, I'd be very surprised. In fact I'd check every time an OPC was supposed to do an oil change that they did actually change the oil (I always check, and several times, have found they haven't - or the filters)
post edited by Rodney Naghar - 2019/01/13 20:13:11
jmaddox
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Re: 997 Turbo with sudden engine failure and Warrantywise Claim Issues. 2019/01/14 09:02:40 (permalink)
Does the fact the oil pump was changed mean it was running low oil pressure prior to replacement ?
Geoff997
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Re: 997 Turbo with sudden engine failure and Warrantywise Claim Issues. 2019/01/14 11:27:07 (permalink)
No, it was a scavenge pump that was replaced not the main oil pressure pump.

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robbosliding
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Re: 997 Turbo with sudden engine failure and Warrantywise Claim Issues. 2019/01/14 18:57:22 (permalink)
So......and I'm still a bit dizzy with the result and I'm pleased to say I take my hat off to Warrantywise......Last Monday the Independent Vehicle Examiner (the vehicle assessor) looked at my engine dismantled by 911 Sport to report to Warrantywise. I don't think he got it right, he omitted that shells were missing and to my mind his "wear and tear" report was inaccurate, misplaced and both very costly and unfair. I phoned and objected and was invited to email my difference in. I sent that email at 0015hrs on Friday morning. Warrantywise responded that same day contacting 911 Sport. At 0903hrs this Monday morning I received an email back from Warrantywise indicating Quentin Wilson had adjudicated it himself and found there was no adverse history, a full service history, a car that has repeatedly been seen by dealers with no indications or reports of issues to support the wear and tear finding. In the next sentence they state they concurred with my opinion and have authorised the maximum ceiling payment the policy delivers of £5000 for the claim. It's taken a week from start to finish from the inspection taking place.
I can only praise Warrantywise for resolving the dispute quickly and amicably - they have paid out this year £6700 on claims against my £668 silver policy. My first three year package with them saw them look after me well and cost £450 for the three years, latterly now the car is over 10 years old the premium has risen but IMHO is well worth it. My Indy says they have been the fairest and quickest warranty firm to deal with. Despite causing me the week of angst (down to the independent examiner) I cannot praise Warrantywise enough for fully and quickly investigating my complaint and finding (quite rightly) on my side. I will be renewing with them without hesitation. I strongly recommend Warrantywise to cover your car for warranties.

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Rodney Naghar
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Re: 997 Turbo with sudden engine failure and Warrantywise Claim Issues. 2019/01/14 19:05:07 (permalink)
Congratulations, great result. I've heard only good things about Warranty Wise. 
jmaddox
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Re: 997 Turbo with sudden engine failure and Warrantywise Claim Issues. 2019/01/14 22:48:48 (permalink)
Thats great to hear.
Smurf991ts
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Re: 997 Turbo with sudden engine failure and Warrantywise Claim Issues. 2019/01/15 20:37:35 (permalink)
Fab result. Good man Quentin 
Matdor
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Re: 997 Turbo with sudden engine failure and Warrantywise Claim Issues. 2019/01/26 17:33:04 (permalink)
That's great news. What was the estimated  total repair cost again ? I thought I read it was £28k or am I mistaken ?
I currently have an extended Porsche Warranty which costs £1,100 for one year. My car is a 2007 997.1 turbo with 64k on the clock. It's due a major service and spark plugs, a whopping £1,450 at Porsche or £750 at my independent specialist. Would go with the latter if it wasn't for the warranty which has 9 months left and would be void if not serviced by Porsche.
I have been considering alternative warranty providers so I can use the independent specialist but always thought maintaining my car with Porsche together with the warranty would help hold its value, be easier to sell if I ever decided too.
Since owning the car for 3yrs I have claimed against the warranty and would have thought broken even or better slightly, when considering what Porsche charge for repairs.
Examples of work carried out, coolant housing leaked, drivers window mechanism failed, aircon magnetic clutch replaced (5wks to diagnose), oil sump seal, steering / damper issue !! and possibly some other bits. Despite all these Porsche advise it's a good example!! I love it, it drives like new but i do wonder sometimes.
The car is 12 yrs old so only have 2 more years in which Porsche will provide an extended warranty.
The independent specialist has warned me about 997 turbo s in which the turbo housing delaminates and blows the backs off eventually which would cost £2-5k for both and not be covered by any warranty.
Soz for the long post.
What are people's thoughts advise?
 
richardjjs1
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Re: 997 Turbo with sudden engine failure and Warrantywise Claim Issues. 2019/01/27 10:18:57 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Matdor 2019/01/27 10:34:44
Please remember that a Porsche Warranty on any car under 15 years old with full service history and last one done by OPC CAN qualify for their warranty
This would have covered the Oil scavenger pump and the NEW engine. !! Has to go through a111 check which on any high priced car is worth the 220 inc VAT This is virtually the warranty you would get with anew car
I believe your car would have qualified for this warranty - But its too late
Did you say that an OPC had replace the pump If so they are possibly liable
but may have had to had the car recovered to an OPC (Which would have cost far more)
Did you say your warranty guys has a limit  of 5k - This is why I didn't take mine out.
THis is not h good result on an engine of such quality I really think you should get someone like Hartech to inspect the engine as its very stange that it failed so soon after the oil scavenger pump went
Why did you replace it - I seriously wonder if the damage started before this was replaced
GOOD LUCK -
 
 

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richardjjs1
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Re: 997 Turbo with sudden engine failure and Warrantywise Claim Issues. 2019/01/27 10:27:52 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Matdor 2019/01/27 10:35:00
Don't forget you get 10% as a PCGGB member
I would not even consider using anybody else for a warranty (or Service).
This is an extension of the original warranty nothing comes close 
They have so many exclusions on non Porsche Warranty. Don't forget that no matte how good the Specialist is he will not have the backing of a Multy Billion company behind him. If OPC do it wrong they will be responsible Specialist may not be able to afford it
Most OPCs north of London have special prices for 5 year old cars and above
Phone OPC at Wolvs - mention my name and get a price. You may be pleasantly suprised

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Matdor
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Re: 997 Turbo with sudden engine failure and Warrantywise Claim Issues. 2019/01/27 10:55:38 (permalink)
Richard jjs1
Really helpful post. Just reaffirmed my thoughts on OPC warranty.
The tough one to decide on in my case will be do I get rid of the car in its last OPC warranty year with fsh and look for another / part ex etc.....how high is the risk of total failure etc
In my experience with Porsche Leeds they have been really helpful on many occasions when I have questioned work requiref, prices etc. I have Porsche assistance as well and when I had a low oil pressure warning it was put on a low recovery truck. They had it 5 weeks and provided a hire car albeit a Volvo XC60 inscription but as I didn't really need it we agreed on me handing the car  back and they gave me 2 half days at Porsche Driving Experience Silverstone in any car. I had a full day in the turbo s. 
That is great service especially as its an old car.
Due you get 10% on everything? That is something i have never enquired about and its never been mentioned to me by Porsche Leeds....hmmmm
 
richardjjs1
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Re: 997 Turbo with sudden engine failure and Warrantywise Claim Issues. 2019/01/27 14:35:59 (permalink)
Depends on OPC (And local Club) Both Chester and Wolvs give 10% on mst everything except WARRANTY but should on the actual 111 check. about 220.00 which is included if you take the warranty
Interestingly Porsche Chester say its got to have FULL OPC servicing. Weras Teeside says its got to have the last service done at OPC
Friend has just bought a 2012 997.2 Carrera 4 GT3 with 38 k. First 2 services at Porsche Specialist last one done at OPC Wilmslow  in September. Needed Porsche battery, New Cigar Lighter and a second working key (Although I reprogramed that at the first services we called at on way home)All paid for by Redline Cars near Harrogate
Not sure why someone would spend 100k on a new car and not have the first service done at an OPC (Again I think for the Warranty on a Porsche it has to be done at an OPC)!!  
 
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