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Bungditin
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2018/11/14 17:21:21 (permalink)

Brake upgrade

looking for advice on a brake upgrade for my Targa. Obviously it will never be a track tool, but I would like more stopping power. I’m on 17” cup 1s
 
thanks in advance.
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Ian_McLeod
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Re: Brake upgrade 2018/11/14 17:44:45 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Bungditin 2018/11/15 15:53:36
Early 964s have the small rear callipers which can be easily upgraded to the larger rear callipers fitted to later 964. Pretty sure the next option is looking at the 993 brake setup up but it is while since I owned my 964. Upgraded pads are also an option.
 
What are your concerns with your standard brakes as I never felt mine were a problem as a road car (with the larger rear callipers) and I drove it in a spirited manner ?

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Dekker
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Re: Brake upgrade 2018/11/14 18:01:38 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Bungditin 2018/11/15 15:53:25
I upgraded mine using 2nd hand 928 S4 calipers for the fronts and 993 rear calipers. There are articles on Rennlist showing what's needed and what you can do. If you want to go brand new the Big Reds for the fronts but you'll need the larger discs, 330mm, as opposed to the smaller ones I used for mine which are the same as 964 RS.
If yours is a C4 then you only need the front brakes upgrading.
 
Upgrade to 924 S4 fronts on Sports 928 S4 discs
• front calipers (require caliper adaptor)
• 302 x 32mm cross-drilled front discs for 928 S4
• 993/964 Carrera RS rear calipers (they are the same caliper)
• 964 Carrera RS cross drilled rear discs
• Recommended: 993 master cylinder for C2. For track use, RS upgrade for C4, Turbo
• 55 bar bias valve
 
This upgrade further enhances brake cooling with a larger disc. By themselves, the front calipers would increase front brake bias, however, this is balanced by fitting the 993 calipers with larger pistons in the rear. Discs now have holes and curved, directional, vanes in the front. This upgrade requires 17 inch wheels.
 
Front
2x44mm Seals
3x36mm Seals
 
Rear
4x34mm Seals
4x30mm Seals
Brakes International 01706 662986 Josh   Without pistons  £63.95
 
2x 44mm kits (piston & seals)  OPC Sutton Coldfield 
1x 36mm kit (piston & seals)  OPC Sutton Coldfield     £69.61
 
2x caliper interconnect pipes & fittings  £6
5mm ID Samco Silicone Hose for interconnects 1metre  RaceBikeBitz  £4.50
2x brake pipes & fittings  £6
 
2x Adapter Brackets for fronts   £50 Pro9
4x M12 x 1.5P x 35mm fine pitch Allen cap head bolts High Tensile Grade 12.9.  Ballsgrinding.com  £8.58
4x M12 x 1.75P x 80mm fine pitch Allen cap head bolts High Tensile Grade 12.9
Kay's Fasteners  £3.94
8x M12 washers for 928S4 calipers OPC Sutton Coldfield  £2.50
 
55psi regulator valve OPC Sutton Coldfield  £61.58
 
993 C2 rear calipers   £150 PCGB member
928S4 front calipers   £130 Ebay
 
 
2x 964RS front discs Pro9 £350.40
2x 964 rear sports discs CarParts4Less.com  £175.56
 
Total £1,102.62
 
964 C4 Textar rear pads
928S4 Textar front pads
 
Prices were for 2014/15
 

David Bladon
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Bungditin
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Re: Brake upgrade 2018/11/14 18:02:35 (permalink)
Hi
I don’t know if it’s from my time with motorbikes or that I drive modern cars, but I find the 964 brakes a bit wooden, for want of a better word
Alexander_Drobik
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Re: Brake upgrade 2018/11/14 18:24:16 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Bungditin 2018/11/15 15:53:16
Upgrading to Big Reds in front or similar will stop the car better for sure.... just make sure you increase the brake master cylinder if a C2. I heard of cases for fluid not being available on some C2/BigReds when hot and pads at a minimum, just not enough fluid capacity. Good luck. PS, better discs than standard in the front also useful esp if you track it. Talk to a specialist, saves time. I had my C4 moved to BigReds and it fixed any braking issues even on track.
 
 
 
 
 
 
Dekker
I upgraded mine using 2nd hand 928 S4 calipers for the fronts and 993 rear calipers. There are articles on Rennlist showing what's needed and what you can do. If you want to go brand new the Big Reds for the fronts but you'll need the larger discs, 330mm, as opposed to the smaller ones I used for mine which are the same as 964 RS.
If yours is a C4 then you only need the front brakes upgrading.
 
Upgrade to 924 S4 fronts on Sports 928 S4 discs
• front calipers (require caliper adaptor)
• 302 x 32mm cross-drilled front discs for 928 S4
• 993/964 Carrera RS rear calipers (they are the same caliper)
• 964 Carrera RS cross drilled rear discs
• Recommended: 993 master cylinder for C2. For track use, RS upgrade for C4, Turbo
• 55 bar bias valve
 
This upgrade further enhances brake cooling with a larger disc. By themselves, the front calipers would increase front brake bias, however, this is balanced by fitting the 993 calipers with larger pistons in the rear. Discs now have holes and curved, directional, vanes in the front. This upgrade requires 17 inch wheels.
 
Front
2x44mm Seals
3x36mm Seals
 
Rear
4x34mm Seals
4x30mm Seals
Brakes International 01706 662986 Josh   Without pistons  £63.95
 
2x 44mm kits (piston & seals)  OPC Sutton Coldfield 
1x 36mm kit (piston & seals)  OPC Sutton Coldfield     £69.61
 
2x caliper interconnect pipes & fittings  £6
5mm ID Samco Silicone Hose for interconnects 1metre  RaceBikeBitz  £4.50
2x brake pipes & fittings  £6
 
2x Adapter Brackets for fronts   £50 Pro9
4x M12 x 1.5P x 35mm fine pitch Allen cap head bolts High Tensile Grade 12.9.  Ballsgrinding.com  £8.58
4x M12 x 1.75P x 80mm fine pitch Allen cap head bolts High Tensile Grade 12.9
Kay's Fasteners  £3.94
8x M12 washers for 928S4 calipers OPC Sutton Coldfield  £2.50
 
55psi regulator valve OPC Sutton Coldfield  £61.58
 
993 C2 rear calipers   £150 PCGB member
928S4 front calipers   £130 Ebay
 
 
2x 964RS front discs Pro9 £350.40
2x 964 rear sports discs CarParts4Less.com  £175.56
 
Total £1,102.62
 
964 C4 Textar rear pads
928S4 Textar front pads
 
Prices were for 2014/15
 





Regards Alex
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Hacki
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Re: Brake upgrade 2018/11/14 20:42:08 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Bungditin 2018/11/15 15:53:07
As you say you don´t want to use it on track - so I think a mild upgrade will do it. If you still have the small rear calipers, the rear brake will be the first component to cause trouble when the car is driven in anger.
Now that you mention a wooden brake feeling, better pads with a strong initial bite may solve your problem. The standard brake is absolutely fine for a road car.
Personally, I have good experiences with Performance Friction brake pads.
 
I found this link: https://www.design911.co.uk/fu/pt66_1642_-cma81-cmo107/Porsche/964--911--1989-94/Performance-Friction-Brakes/
 
It´s well worth a try before spending a shed-load of money on calipers, etc..
 
Track use will be a different story.
 
Hope this helps,
 
Hacki

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Steve Brookes
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Re: Brake upgrade 2018/11/15 09:42:39 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Bungditin 2018/11/15 15:53:00
Agree with Hacki that for road use the mild upgrade of the rear calipers to four pots as used by the 964C4 should be more than adequate (Nb. I'm assuming that you have a C2 targa with small rear 2 pots). When doing this you'll also need to change the brake proportioning valve from the 45 bar one to the 55 bar one.
 
The wooden feel could also be associated to the state of the calipers. They may well be suffering from the classic 'spring plate lift' issue that affects these cars. Extensive plate lift (corrosion behind the plates) will mean that the pads are not moving freely in the calipers.

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Bungditin
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Re: Brake upgrade 2018/11/15 15:53:47 (permalink)
Very helpful advice guys.
 
i guess I’m in the market for some 993 rear calipers 
 
cheers
mcgc0
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Re: Brake upgrade 2018/11/15 16:31:53 (permalink)
Options options... you can go mad (just for the sake of it) and throw silly money at something you'll 99.9% never use as designed. To be honest, I thought I could improve things years back but 2 different C4's later I realised I'd just be wasting my time and money (which is better spent on top tyres and long EU trip fuel to Le Mans!). As mentioned above I believe, the C4 and Turbo have the same calipers as 928 S4 (big blacks) and different to the C2, it also has a high pressure hydraulic brake boost pump - a charged circuit ready to drop anchors in a millisecond on your command. Plus it has a different master cyl diameter. All in all, I find the braking to be phenomenal and really do the job well - track days and when I've spent 7 hours/day fast driving the Scottish open highlands with full/fast on braking.
 
Stuck to Textar pads (as recommended by a current PCGB Speed Championship buddy) and only get these from an OPC. High/track quality brake fluid is changed religiously every other year. If you are to change to different calipers then it's an all wheel consideration and not just rears - the bias will throw you off into the scenery ;) Let us know what you go with on the end...

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Steve Brookes
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Re: Brake upgrade 2018/11/16 09:28:37 (permalink)
Bungditin
Very helpful advice guys.
 
i guess I’m in the market for some 993 rear calipers 
 
cheers




Not quite. The only 993 rear calipers you can fit to a 964 which has the normal front calipers are the ones from a 993C4. If you get the 993C2 rear calipers you will add so much rear braking bias that the rears will lock up before the fronts.
 
So your choice for 4 pot rear calipers are the rears from: 964C4, 993C4, 928S4 or 968 (and I think the 944 turbo). For the latter two the bleed nipples would be pointing down if you fit them as they are so you have swap the bleed nipples with the cross pipe before fitting.
 
Here's a write up and pictures of when I did the upgrade to the rear brakes on my C2:
 
http://boxsey.blogspot.co...ke-upgrade-jan-08.html

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Steve Brookes
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Re: Brake upgrade 2018/11/16 09:46:14 (permalink)
mcgc0
Options options... you can go mad (just for the sake of it) and throw silly money at something you'll 99.9% never use as designed. To be honest, I thought I could improve things years back but 2 different C4's later I realised I'd just be wasting my time and money (which is better spent on top tyres and long EU trip fuel to Le Mans!). As mentioned above I believe, the C4 and Turbo have the same calipers as 928 S4 (big blacks) and different to the C2, it also has a high pressure hydraulic brake boost pump - a charged circuit ready to drop anchors in a millisecond on your command. Plus it has a different master cyl diameter. All in all, I find the braking to be phenomenal and really do the job well - track days and when I've spent 7 hours/day fast driving the Scottish open highlands with full/fast on braking.
 
Stuck to Textar pads (as recommended by a current PCGB Speed Championship buddy) and only get these from an OPC. High/track quality brake fluid is changed religiously every other year. If you are to change to different calipers then it's an all wheel consideration and not just rears - the bias will throw you off into the scenery ;) Let us know what you go with on the end...




Marcus, just to be sure, the C4 did not have big blacks all round. Only on the rear. The C2 had 2 pots on the rear until MY92 when it also got the 4 pot rears. The 3.3 turbo had bigger front calipers and the same size rear calipers but with bigger pistons (essentially the same brake calipers that were put on the 964RS and then the 993C2). Summary of all the brake calipers, pistons and disc sizes at the link below:
 
https://members.rennlist.com/1976c38/brakes.htm

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mcgc0
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Re: Brake upgrade 2018/11/16 10:11:24 (permalink)
Steve Brookes
...the C4 did not have big blacks all round. Only on the rear. The C2 had 2 pots on the rear until MY92



That's right Steve, apologies if it wasn't clear as I thought it was the rears we were referring to. Yes, later year C2's were upgraded.
 
Also correct is the suggestion the 944 T's had same calipers - the final MY 944T's had a lot of juicy performance options as standard (inc M220 LSD etc).
 
Still thrashing the Cayman R (or even still have it?) :)

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Steve Brookes
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Re: Brake upgrade 2018/11/16 11:36:38 (permalink)
mcgc0
Steve Brookes
...the C4 did not have big blacks all round. Only on the rear. The C2 had 2 pots on the rear until MY92



That's right Steve, apologies if it wasn't clear as I thought it was the rears we were referring to. Yes, later year C2's were upgraded.
 
Also correct is the suggestion the 944 T's had same calipers - the final MY 944T's had a lot of juicy performance options as standard (inc M220 LSD etc).
 
Still thrashing the Cayman R (or even still have it?) :)




No mate....thrashing the GT4 in my avatar pic now.

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Dekker
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Re: Brake upgrade 2018/11/16 18:21:34 (permalink)

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Re: Brake upgrade 2018/11/19 12:51:22 (permalink)
Guys sorry to hijack the thread, my car is a C2 running 2 pots front/rear. I need to change pads and discs all round, what is the best option  and where to source with our discount? Seems Textar pads are the way forward, can we go aftermarket on the discs? Thanks
mcgc0
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Re: Brake upgrade 2018/11/19 13:07:40 (permalink)
timrichardson1
Guys sorry to hijack the thread, my car is a C2 running 2 pots front/rear. I need to change pads and discs all round, what is the best option  and where to source with our discount? Seems Textar pads are the way forward, can we go aftermarket on the discs? Thanks




If I recall Tim, I went with OEM Sebro discs from Design911 a few years back. Still good but hen probably have only clocked 10k miles in that time. Textar pads still but have been thinking when they need changing I might give PFC pads a go.

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timrichardson1
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Re: Brake upgrade 2018/11/19 15:17:48 (permalink)
Excellent thanks for the advice sir, it's a 'to do' job that I need to factor in prior to the next annual service in April. Going to have a go at it myself :-) 
Steve Brookes
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Re: Brake upgrade 2018/11/19 16:05:52 (permalink)
Type911 are a reliable supplier for the sebro discs for a 964. The front brakes are 4 pot and there's plenty of pad choice for those but for normal use I found textar to the best. The rear 2 pot brakes use very small pads and there's very little choice for those. It's either Porsche original or textar.

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mcgc0
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Re: Brake upgrade 2018/11/19 16:17:46 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby timrichardson1 2018/11/19 20:55:37
timrichardson1
Excellent thanks for the advice sir, it's a 'to do' job that I need to factor in prior to the next annual service in April. Going to have a go at it myself :-) 


When you get the new discs clean them up with brake cleaner and spray paint the hubs (grey/black/whatever) - better than that that brown corrosion look you'll get within months of use.

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Re: Brake upgrade 2018/11/19 20:55:28 (permalink)
Steve Brookes
Type911 are a reliable supplier for the sebro discs for a 964. The front brakes are 4 pot and there's plenty of pad choice for those but for normal use I found textar to the best. The rear 2 pot brakes use very small pads and there's very little choice for those. It's either Porsche original or textar.




 
Superb thanks Steve 👍
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