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Hot!Engine not turning over intermittently

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geedee
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Re: Engine not turning over intermittently 2022/06/18 10:41:24 (permalink)
Having read the above I would suspect the likely suspect may be at the starter motor, and perhaps more than likely the solenoid. The clicking you hear could perhaps be either the relay that controls the solenoid or the solenoid it`s self..? 
That you have replaced the earth leads and hopefully cleaned both ends where they connect to the engine chassis/gearbox or whatever to ensure good contact... and that the connections at the solenoid are not corroded or loose...  A test perhaps worth trying to determine whether the issue might be battery or starter related, is to switch on the headlights, and try to start the engine.... If all you get is the click you mention, and the lights dim considerably then chances are that it is battery related. 
If all you get is slight or no headlight dimming and hear the click when you turn the key to engage the starter, then the issue would seem to be starter related.
If starter related then the solenoid is perhaps favourite, The solenoid is just a heavy duty relay.  
When you turn the ign key to engage the start sequence,  that switching action then provides power to the coil of the first relay in the circuit, which will logically emit a click as it`s contacts close, those contacts when closed  then pass on power to switch on the coil within the second relay in the form of the solenoid mounted on the side of the starter motor,  it creates a louder click, with the coil in the solenoid now energised causing the starter motor`s gearwheel to engage the flywheel with a clunk, and once engaged the heavy duty contacts in the solenoid then close to make the starter motor live and turn the engine over  
Thus a small relay switches on a larger relay which then switches on the starter motor..
The contacts in the solenoid can burn over time given the high degree of power that they are dealing with it is normal for them to fail intermittently over some time prior to total failure..  My thinking behind having the headlights on is to determine whether the contacts in the solenoid are passing current/power to the starter motor it`s self. In the case where the contacts have failed/burned and are passing no power and all you hear is the click you describe, the headlights are unlikely to dim to any great degree, as the load of the starter has not been switched through to the battery..
New solenoids can be bought independently of the starter, though if the starter has seen a lot of service it might be best to bight the bullet and buy a new or reconditioned unit..?
I have stripped and repaired a solenoid with burned contacts on a friends 928.. simple if you know how, though given the cost of buying a new solenoid, hardly worth the bother..
Hope this helps in some way.
Feel free to suggest where I might be mistaken,
les richards
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Re: Engine not turning over intermittently 2022/06/18 11:01:47 (permalink)
I had a similar problem on my 993 recently, just a click and no more.
 
Had a new starter fitted under warranty and all seems well.
 
It had a 'new' starter a short while ago but the solenoid was the main suspect this time. Indie said that often the solenoid doesn't get the same level of refurbishment as the rest of the motor on replacement starters, which tend to be reconditioned rather than brand new. 

Les Richards
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geedee
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Re: Engine not turning over intermittently 2022/06/18 11:17:39 (permalink)
I suspect that there are few who would take the time to "service" a solenoid on the basis of any reasonable cost benifit analysis, given the relativly low cost of a solenoid.   
 
As for "reconditioned" there would seem to be a whole world of difference in terms of quality/rip off out there in the recon marketplace..?
 
The only reason I stripped and "repaired" the 928 starter was that my friend was visiting and needed the car to get home with no chance of finding a replacement solenoid on the day..!
GeoffB
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Re: Engine not turning over intermittently 2022/06/18 11:27:30 (permalink)
I had similar problems on way back from Le Mans years ago in my 3.2 Speedster. After long run on motorway would not turn over. Bump started OK. Stopped at chunnel again would just click,bump start to get on train. Started fine on train and OK all the way home. Checked earth contacts from engine to chassis, cleaned up and thought had sorted as all OK for a while. Next hot run same again,had real good look at earthing and found the strap was corroded where it went over part of rear suspension. Changed earth strap and never failed again in my ownership 
 

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Stephenjk
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Re: Engine not turning over intermittently 2022/06/20 15:01:39 (permalink)
 
Thanks i tried starting car with the lights on and they go out completely when it doesnt turn over.  After waiting 30 seconds or so i turn on the ignition again and lights go out completely again however this time engine turns over and car starts.  Looks like it is the battery then so I’ll look at replacing battery as a next step.  
 
 
 
 
 
geedee
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Re: Engine not turning over intermittently 2022/06/20 16:07:33 (permalink)
Sorry if I was not clear enough when I typed "battery related" in that you could have a perfect battery with a poor terminal connection, or taking that further a poor earth strap from the battery to the chassis or a poor connection where the earth strap connects to the chassis ... ALL on the assumption that on your model Porsche the circuitry is not configured to cut headlights when the starter is engaged..?
As an example of a possible fault caused by crud at a battery terminal causing an intermittent fault.. with the headlights on you have put a load on the faulty connection and when you add the load of the starter the connection just gives up and in the process heats up and more than likely causes a bit of burning, which then can create a slightly better connection, thus things begin to work again till the next time it fails and so on... of course this can happen within the battery it`s self too.. Though easy enough  to check with a simple voltmeter... Check the battery and earth connection points FIRST.
hope this helps.  
Ray
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Re: Engine not turning over intermittently 2022/06/20 20:56:11 (permalink)
Personally, I would go to my local tyre and battery service dealer and ask him to check the discharge rate and at the same time the charging rate, just to confirm. I have had this type of issue on other vehicles. Sometimes the alternator is not putting enough back into the battery or the battery will not hold its charge due to the high demand on start up.
 

Ray
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Re: Engine not turning over intermittently 2022/06/22 10:38:57 (permalink)
Only just read this, I had a similar thing, car on a CTEK for extended period, car would just clunk.. then after some tried, get lucky and fire. 
 
I noticed I would never have this problem after a run or days after. It was just being sat for a long period that I would get this. I performed all sorts of tests and found that the battery would just be under 12v on occasion and this would result in the non start. If I put jump leads on with another car connected, fired up instantly. Battery performed fine in all tests by a garage. 
 
It would be interesting, that when your car does this, if you join another car/jump leads, does it fire instantly or not. 
 
During all of this, I had changed the voltage reg on my alternator also as I heard these can cause issues with drain. I still got the issue once after changing this so I'm not sure it did anything for me but I definitely noticed the car didn't respond well to long periods of not being used even with the CTEK.. All my earths were renewed/cleaned, starter solenoid inspected etc.
 
My next option was a battery with more CCA.

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Ray
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Re: Engine not turning over intermittently 2022/06/22 10:47:14 (permalink)
MarkGolf
Only just read this, I had a similar thing, car on a CTEK for extended period, car would just clunk.. then after some tried, get lucky and fire. 
 
I noticed I would never have this problem after a run or days after. It was just being sat for a long period that I would get this. I performed all sorts of tests and found that the battery would just be under 12v on occasion and this would result in the non start. If I put jump leads on with another car connected, fired up instantly. Battery performed fine in all tests by a garage. 
 
It would be interesting, that when your car does this, if you join another car/jump leads, does it fire instantly or not. 
 
During all of this, I had changed the voltage reg on my alternator also as I heard these can cause issues with drain. I still got the issue once after changing this so I'm not sure it did anything for me but I definitely noticed the car didn't respond well to long periods of not being used even with the CTEK.. All my earths were renewed/cleaned, starter solenoid inspected etc.
 
My next option was a battery with more CCA.

Spot on, I would always go for the largest capacity Cold Cranking for my vehicles. I do a lot of short runs, therefore I have all my vehicles connected to battery conditioners. Starting up an engine takes so much power from your battery and short runs, especially in winter with heaters running etc.



Ray
geedee
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Re: Engine not turning over intermittently 2022/06/22 12:38:56 (permalink)
Perhaps also worth considering is that if there is some degree of corrosion/crud/electrical resistance between the battery terminals and either the main positive OR earth vehicle wiring battery connectors, then there is a chance that the CTEK may be connected via those connectors and thus  may be confused and perhaps be unable to provide a full charge..?   As ever TIME is an important factor in battery capacity as well as charge and discharge cycles..
Again if there is crud between the battery terminals and the vehicle battery wiring connectors... In a situation where jump leads are used, the terminal crud situation is by-passed as the jump leads will be connected to the vehicles battery wiring connectors thus temporarily overcoming a possible crud issue and starting the engine.
There are handy circular battery terminal and battery wiring clamp reamer/scraper tools available on the web
4-Way Battery Post & Terminal Cleaner | AK418 | 1 Year Warranty | Sealey
The larger the CCA the better.... but not always the answer..?
les richards
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Re: Engine not turning over intermittently 2022/06/22 15:43:00 (permalink)
...perhaps a wee bit clutching at straws, but how old is the battery tender?
 
Reason I ask is that when my car was not starting I was going through much of what you are trying to fix it.  I've used an Optimate111 and when I contacted them to see if there was a check I could do Optimate advised that, due to it's age (bought in 2000!) it may well be past its best and suggested an Optimate5 would probably be better suited as it has a greater output.  Don't know if that was just a salesman talking or genuine advice.  I didn't find out how to check it either, mind, but now use a Lidl unit bought as back-up when they were on offer.
 
All that said, of course, I had the starter changed and all now seems well.
 
Because all the lights work it doesn't necessarily mean the tender is operating at its best.

Les Richards
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5152 MU - 993 Coupe Polar Silver
geedee
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Re: Engine not turning over intermittently 2022/06/22 17:23:17 (permalink)
Nothing wrong with clutching at straws Les.
Chargers come in a variety of types, the ideal for seldom used cars would seem to be the float/conditioner type of chargers that sense the battery voltage  and adjust the charge accordingly to bring it up to the ideal voltage.
As for the TIME it might take to get up to full voltage that is dependant on a few factors though primarily the maximum charger output.
The age/condition of the battery is key in terms of it`s ability to retain charge over TIME, A battery may read well on a voltmeter but as soon as a load is put upon it, the voltage can drop off considerably, and no more so than when trying to crank the engine over. 
I have two CTEK chargers, one for ordinary old style wet lead acid batteries,  and the other a newer version which can charge and condition either ordinary wet lead acid batteries, or the newer type Advanced Glass Mat batteries as will be found in vehicles with stop/start operation...
As best I understand it the AGM batteries if fitted to an air cooled or similar age machine, will never get up to full charge as the AGM max is a higher voltage than the older led acid type, thus the alternator`s inbuilt voltage regulator will have a max voltage setting lower than the AGM type battery`s max voltage.. Similarly old style float chargers may also not bring an AGM battery up to a fully charged state..?
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Re: Engine not turning over intermittently 2022/06/22 18:44:33 (permalink)
geedee
Nothing wrong with clutching at straws Les.
Chargers come in a variety of types, the ideal for seldom used cars would seem to be the float/conditioner type of chargers that sense the battery voltage  and adjust the charge accordingly to bring it up to the ideal voltage.
As for the TIME it might take to get up to full voltage that is dependant on a few factors though primarily the maximum charger output.
The age/condition of the battery is key in terms of it`s ability to retain charge over TIME, A battery may read well on a voltmeter but as soon as a load is put upon it, the voltage can drop off considerably, and no more so than when trying to crank the engine over. 
I have two CTEK chargers, one for ordinary old style wet lead acid batteries,  and the other a newer version which can charge and condition either ordinary wet lead acid batteries, or the newer type Advanced Glass Mat batteries as will be found in vehicles with stop/start operation...
As best I understand it the AGM batteries if fitted to an air cooled or similar age machine, will never get up to full charge as the AGM max is a higher voltage than the older led acid type, thus the alternator`s inbuilt voltage regulator will have a max voltage setting lower than the AGM type battery`s max voltage.. Similarly old style float chargers may also not bring an AGM battery up to a fully charged state..?


I was surprised at the time it took my battery to reach full charge with my Ctek charger. My first thoughts were the charger was goosed, but no it eventually got there. AGM batteries as far as I am aware are for use with the stop/start functionality.

Ray
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Re: Engine not turning over intermittently 2022/06/23 09:44:38 (permalink)
Thanks for all of the suggestions.
 
- battery tender is CTEK MX 5.0 and is new (few months old).
- I do have some suspicions the CTEK isn't keeping the battery fully charged, will look into this further at weekend
- I'm going to remove the battery connections and clean again.  I think they are fine to be honest and both earths are brand new and look like they connect to body fine without corrosion so don't think this is the issue.
- battery is 4 years old, I just bought a new one so I'm going to try a new battery at the weekend.  The battery is Lead acid not AGM. 
- solenoid looks relatively cheap so tempted to just swap it out just in case. £28 here https://www.bestpartstore.co.uk/8127145-meat-doria-solenoid-switch-starter
- I have a parasitic drain which flattened the battery a few times so also will take a look and see if i can find that, so might be combination of ctek (my onld one now replaced) not keeping it fully charged and parasitic drain causing battery capacity to be reduced over time.
 
I'll let you know how i get on!
Stephen
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Re: Engine not turning over intermittently 2022/06/23 13:15:07 (permalink)
Thanks for taking the time to reply Stephen, crud between the battery terminals and the vehicles clamps is a bit of a rarity. It is possible that even a new CTEK can find it`s self in a situation where it may not keep up with a parasitic drain.. I suspect your CTEK`s max output is circa 5 amps, thus a drain anywhere near that cause the CTEK to be running HOT in time as the result of trying to keep up with the battery discharge rate, as opposed to the charger eventually running at lower current levels expected as the battery comes up to a fully charged state..?
OK so unlikely to have a parasitic loss that high ( I hope) but alarm and other location/anti theft devices have been known to cause issues that can be intermittent and draw current when the car is left to it`s own devices for lengthy periods (ie not a daily) that combined with an older battery that may have been living a difficult life of irregular charging, possibly been allowed to run flat on occasion and when next charged used to crank a reluctant machine to fire up... all of which can prematurely age a battery and reduce it`s capacity to hold charge.
Any and all the aforementioned can add together to create the issues you seem to be suffering and if you add to that a reluctant starter motor...?
Looking forward to reading you have it resolved SOON..
EDIT :-  Forgot to mention for anyone else reading this with similar issues...  parasitic losses causing the battery to discharge over TIME and due to lack of regular use can be overcome by fitting a battery isolator switch, though much depends upon any circuit which may be a bother to reprogramme as the result of isolating the battery and reconnection..?  
post edited by geedee - 2022/06/23 16:14:00
Stephenjk
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Re: Engine not turning over intermittently 2022/06/28 09:40:38 (permalink)
Some progress.  Fitted new battery at the weekend.  With new battery car starts first time from cold both times I've tried so it does look like issue was with the battery.  Something odd is going on though as checked for battery drain and  getting 80 mamps and after few hours 40 mamps, however am seeing faster drain on my ctek monitor so still need to investigate that.  Btw bonnet light is disconnected so not impacted by bonnet open in first pic.
 

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geedee
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Re: Engine not turning over intermittently 2022/06/28 11:51:28 (permalink)
 "With new battery car starts first time from cold both times I've tried so it does look like issue was with the battery."
 
For sure things can appear that way, only time will tell, so keeping my fingers crossed for you.  I have zero experience with the CTEK monitor but being blue tooth I imagine it will draw a few ma to operate, thus adding to whatever losses the battery experiences over time..? 
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