Where do we stand on engine conversions ?

[J4CKO]

Found a site called 944hybrids which details loads of conversions for the 944 that people have done, usually of the V8 persuasion, was just wondering what the 944 faithful make of such conversions ?

Looking at the price of a second hand S2 unit, I can see why some kind of V8 conversion might me viable, ok it will cost more but I suspect it would be fit and forget once any bugs are ironed out, no cambelts and cam gears eating themselves, along with all that lovely power.

I was out in mine today and I love the way it performas, its not super rapid but it will move quite nicely when asked with 210 bhp (or whatever it is now) so one with even a mild v8 would have 350 bhp which is more power than most of the turbos have and 500 bhp is easy to get, I suspect that much may be overkill in a 944, 300 - 350 being the sweet spot but would it ruin the character of the car, would it add to it as the S2 engine is a relatively large capacity N/A engine.

I wouldnt probably stick a really powerful V8 in my cab, think a lot more power would need a coupe to make use of it, would a V8 tear the drivetrain to bits, anyine driven/own one ?

 

[944 man]

I hoped for fit a VAG 1.8l 20vT engine inot my 924S. I gave up in the end and bought a 944 Turbo.

 

[bighead]

always the best route to take imho[]

 

[Frenchy]

Depending on the weight of the engine it could ruin the cars balance.

 

[MarkK]

I thought we agreed we were going to start viewing our undervalued sports cars as classic Porsches ?[&:]

 

[GlennS]

ORIGINAL: MarkK

I thought we agreed we were going to start viewing our undervalued sports cars as classic Porsches ?[&:]

Did we? What does that mean, I wonder. Since "originality" is a really big issue in the Classic car world, it certainly seems to be so with everyone I talk to at classic shows, I guess that means "no modifications" and putting the cars back to "factory specification" for those that have been modified over the years. I suspect that would be a step too far for most 944 owners.

How much deviation is "OK"? I have a Momo steering wheel with extended boss (for comfort reasons) and a more modern stereo fitted so that I don't have to much around with Compact Cassette tapes. Both these changes have generated "tutting" at car shows. Perhaps I should back those changes out, I do still have the original steering wheel but not the stereo.

My own preference is that the 944 remains a 944 as much as is "convenient". I bought one because I like 944s and if I'd wanted a V8 or a v6 I'd have bought something else. If you shoehorn an engine never designed for the car into it, then I don't consider it a 944 any more. It is something 944 shaped. However, if others want to do such things to their cars with a V8 or VAG 1.8T engine it is no skin of my nose.

Talking of VAG 1.8 20v lumps I honestly don't see the fascination. I had one in twin intercooled 225PS turbo form in a Leon Cupra R I owned for 4 years. It was a utilitarian enough thing, I guess, and quite tunable but hardly a "pleasant" engine to drive. The 3 litre 16v in the 944 is much nicer; smoother, more responsive and it sounds better. My abiding memory of the VAG 1.8 was high oil consumption and expiring coil packs.

 

[944 man]

No fascination for me. I had access to a longitudinal AEB engine and it offered, I hoped, an expedient solution. I stopped when it became obvious that fitting a Turbo engine would be easier and cheaper, so I bought a Turbo engine.

Ive since bought a Turbo and I intend to sprint it as a roadgoing car as opposed to a more modified car (under usual Speed rules, but not PCGBs []).



Simon

 

[MarkK]

For me it means the cars are just given the same sort of respect most people would give a 911 or 356 when changing things,a boost increase,a new steering wheel to suit the drivers need or taste,anything tasteful is what i am nudging at is ok in my book,but sticking a big american lump or an engine that doesnt belong remotely in the car is not cool in my book,but thats just my opinion.
I have a functional 4 inch exhaust sticking out the back of my red one and that really bothers me sometimes when i look at the car because it just looks SO unoriginal,these cars are part of a brilliant family of cars,i like them because of their history,their inherant reliability,longevity and this brilliant forum[]-ie nothing to do with any "prestige" of the name.
Thats just me,but what is too far? and does it matter to any one else?i just hate to see these cars altered too far in a way that makes them "wrong".
[] think i might have rattled on a bit there.

 

[944Turbo]

I am planning to put an LS engine in my coupe it hasn't progressed past planning since I took it off the road though almost 2 years ago. There are some issues with a RHD car tha makes it slightly different from the LHD conversions. The starter motor will foul the steering shaft.
The cross member under the engine is a surprisingly different shape not just mirrored. The sump is modified to clear the steering shaft on LHD cars. If you mirrror this on a RHD car you will probably foul the oil pick up pipe.

I am not sure how much of a problem this issues will be. There are dry sump kits for the LS engines which will make it physically fit better, (with the standard sump you have to space the cross member slightly. The connections generally run in the are of the oil pick up though so may create further problems. The LS engines have been known to have oil starvation issues on track so dry sump might be an advantage.

There is nothing that prevents it going back to an original engine and in the future 'period' modifications may be acceptable. I dont plan to sell mine just run it as enjoyable and reliable transport at around 400bhp, I have done big mileages in 944 before and would like to again.

Tony

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: GlennS

ORIGINAL: MarkK

I thought we agreed we were going to start viewing our undervalued sports cars as classic Porsches ?[&:]

Did we? What does that mean, I wonder. Since "originality" is a really big issue in the Classic car world, it certainly seems to be so with everyone I talk to at classic shows, I guess that means "no modifications" and putting the cars back to "factory specification" for those that have been modified over the years. I suspect that would be a step too far for most 944 owners.

How much deviation is "OK"? I have a Momo steering wheel with extended boss (for comfort reasons) and a more modern stereo fitted so that I don't have to much around with Compact Cassette tapes. Both these changes have generated "tutting" at car shows. Perhaps I should back those changes out, I do still have the original steering wheel but not the stereo.

This surely is where the answer lies; what do you want from your car and what are you happy to do to get it?

If you want an original 944 then keep the original engine.

If you want the best bits of a 944 (balance, handling, stability, driving feel) but want to improve on the worst bits (uninspiring engine with a very dull note) then think about putting a V8 in there. The conversion is meant to be fairly easy and the all-alloy block V8's not significantly heavier than the outgoing four-pot, thus keeping the balance and handling finesse. The prices of the V8 engine compared with the cost of rebuilding the Porsche I4's is also not that different, from what I have heard.

If I had access to a decent workshop then I would probably have bought an old 944 with a blown engine and be thinking about importing a crate Corvette lump, just to see what could and couldn't be done. I bet that for the cost of a half-decent turbo you could have bought the non-running 944 and the new mill and have built something that would challenge all but the most modified of 944's. I suspect it would also offer greater reliability, better fuel consumption and be easier to drive on a day-to-day basis as well. (And it would sound simply awesome.)


Oli.

 

[Copperman05]

I don't think all mods are viewed as negative additions, I remember years ago when my dad bought an old and original BSA Super Rocket in the 90's and converted it into a clubmans cafe racer, the local classic bike shop thought he was crazy selling the original stuff for new alloy tank, SS mudguards, drop handle bars, etc. When sold at auction it made significantly more than an all original version, why? because it was more desirable. I think the same can be said for desirable mods for the 944, if done well and they improve the drivability, or performance then I don't see it as issue. Look at Singer Porsche in LA, that guy makes a living out of modding 911's and selling for $350,000 a pop. Make it desirable and people will want it, original or not...

I too have flirted with the idea of a v8 944 but came to the conclusion that for the money to buy and convert one, if its a v8 your after, you could probably buy a good 928GTS for less.


Edd

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: Copperman05

... you could probably buy a good 928GTS for less.

Not sure you could, actually. (Seen how much half-decent 928GTS's go for these days?)

They are also a VERY different car to the 944. I've not driven a GTS, but the 928S2 is totally different in feel to a 944.


Oli.

 

[Copperman05]

Ok maybe, but its only an example, my point being that if you want a v8 then the 928 is an all original Porsche for similar or less money. Granted its a different beast but so is a 944 with a LS2 stuffed under the bonnet.


Edd

 

[TTM]

I suppose originality for the sake of originality makes sense when it is clear that objective improvements cannot be achieved within "reasonable" budget and without "seriously" altering the car's "identity". All 3 subjective terms I know, but let's just think that 50bhp cannot be extracted from an S2 lump with much ease, for instance.

As far as engine swaps are concerned, I think a 5 cyl Audi 20V engine out of an RS2 would make more sense than an American pushrod V8, because :
- it's still a German engine, from the VAG/Porsche family tree at that, and Porsche arguably did some development work on it
- it can be reliably tuned to ridiculous levels of power while retain decent fuel economy when run off boost
- it will offer a far better soundtrack than a 4cyl of course, but also better than a pushrod V8 in my opinion
- at last but not least, it's turbocharged!

I personally would always favour a car that has been modified with mods that I know have been proved to work (MAF, KW suspension, etc) over a 100% original car in similarly good overall cosmetic and mechanical condition.

 

[GlennS]

ORIGINAL: Copperman05

I don't think all mods are viewed as negative additions

Fashions change, Edd. The "Classic" car world is obsessed with "originality" these days. It has even got to the point where people bleat about "over-restored" examples, i.e. you've sorted the rust out an had the the paintwork tidied up. I don't necessarily agree with it, but if we're going to start referring to the 944 as "classics" then that's the sort of attitude the cars will face.

 

[944 man]

ORIGINAL: 944Turbo

I am not sure how much of a problem this issues will be. There are dry sump kits for the LS engines which will make it physically fit better, (with the standard sump you have to space the cross member slightly. The connections generally run in the are of the oil pick up though so may create further problems. The LS engines have been known to have oil starvation issues on track so dry sump might be an advantage.

Tony

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/150537795878?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649

 

[pauljmcnulty]

I would probably have bought an old 944 with a blown engine

I believe they are called "turbos". []

 

[MarkK]

Cheeky![]

 

[Suffolk944]

A few years ago when my original Turbo had engine woes I looked into this in depth via Promax and was very close to going for it. In the end I decided not to partly as the cost of upgrading all the various peripheral bits to handle 400 plus BHP certainly mounted up plus in the end it just felt to me that a 944 with a GM V8 just would not be a 944 any more. That said all the plus points of instant power, ease of maintenance and awesome noise were very appealing !

 

[pauljmcnulty]

I think that while there are so many cheap 944s out there it makes sense to do whatever you want with them. That includes turning one in to a pick-up, or painting a snake on it; they might be horrible, but these are throw-away cars that might get another year's use before going to the great scrapheap in the sky.

A "classic" 944 in the concourse sense is a different thing entirely. There are very few of them, they are near-perfect, worth a lot and you wouldn't want to lose that by changing anything on them.

I wouldn't go to the extent of such a massive conversion as a V8 though. You can buy Merc or Audi V8s for less than the price of the engine alone now, and I'd rather spend £4K on an E55 to thrash to death, and the rest on getting the 944 to a really good spec. The talk was of costs up to £20K to get a V8 944 really sorted, and that buys a CL63 AMG now. Or a 996 turbo in good nick. Or, £20K buys you an M5 with a V10, and enough change for the first service!