My first 944 viewing today - any advice appreciated :)

[Hallsy]

I went over to look at a 944 that wasn' too far from me today, I have read up on 944's for years, but this was the first one I have even sat in!!

Went to look at this one:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Porsche-944-coupe-1989-F-The-Rare-2-7-/221271007857?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item3384c7a271

Seller was a nice guy, he was an 80's car collector, but mainly British stuff and had taken the 944 in from a mechanic friend as payment for something, but he admitted that in hindsight, it wasn't really his thing and was selling cars from his collection that had over 100k. As an example, his pride and joy was an MG Montego!

Anyway, overall the car looked fairly straight, it had had some paint, but not loads, and it looked to be decent enough - a few small marks & dents, but nothing major really - just the things you notice up close. It had good history, pretty much fully stamped book, lots of receipts, etc. Belts done recently and clutch at ~96k in 2006.

My questions are around things I noticed that may or may not be normal, which I'm not sure about with this being the first one I've looked at!

- From the off, the hatch was quite stiff, it opened, but didn't pop open - normal?

- the iginition barrel felt quite loose and vague

- there was some oil leaking onto the exhaust manifold, not loads, but enough that I noticed

- inside the car the headlining parts that run along the sides of the roof panel looked a little unfinished, like you could see some of the roof panel. Ditto for the handbrake area, the carpet looked a little exposed - normal?

- the clutch pedal was very light, with little feel. Not such a bad thing maybe, but I expected the clutch to be heavy on a car of this age?

- the throttle pedal was very stiff - easy fix?

- the PAS was quite heavy, I've had older PAS'd cars and one non-PAS car, and this felt very heavy comparably, but then I have been driving modern cars more recently so might feel exaggerated. It was most noticed turning in/out of junctions, etc.

- gear selection was vague - linkage?

Overall the car looked and sounded OK, paperwork was good, etc - but the heavy steering, mega light clutch and heavy throttle made for a strange feeling car. I didn't get to drive the car at speed as there was no tax so I had to take it down a quiet lane nearby. Just trying to get a feel for what is 'normal' for one of these.

Only other thing that bothered me, was as the seller had taken it in and not really used it, I couldn't get a good/bad owner feeling from him.

I have a couple of others on the radar, but sadly two of them have belt changes that are years out of date (but within mileage) - it does seem quite common that owners don't stick to the 4-5 year interval.

Any advice appreciated

 

[andy watson]

Hi Hallsy,

If budget is an issue I would stick well clear of eBay (and I am not being rude) you need to buying a car from a forum this one or Tipec but if you really really want one you need to be buying this..........


http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=785424&mpage=1&key=&#785424

You will be hard pushed to beat this for the money!

 

[JM1962]

The oil leaking onto the exhaust manifold is most likely from the joint between the cam tower and the cylinder head. It might be possible to re-torque the fasteners and stop the leak, or it may mean the cam tower has to come off and a new gasket fitted which will require the cambelt to be removed.

Hatch might need new shocks or could need aligning.

I think the PAS is heavy compared to a modern car so probably nothing wrong.

Ignition barrel shouldn't be loose, I've never come across that in a 944 but could be an easy fix.

The gear linkage will probably be worn.

The number one thing I would advise is to pop the door vents and shine a torch into the inner sills.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

A lot of things you mention are either minor, or sound like a normal 944. The trouble is, unless you drive a few it's hard to know for sure. The PAS is noticably more positive in feel, or heavier [&:], than modern cars, and the gearbox linkage is likely to be sloppy. I've not had a hatch that pops open on either 944, and plenty of headlinings are scruffy after the sunroof cogs are swapped.

With a red 2.7 there are two really big potential bills, both will be in the thousands. Firstly the red paint can fade, if it's bad it's only ever going to be a respray. More importantly, the inside of the sills, together with the overall body condition, is far more important than overdue belts or small interior trim issues.

I'd agree with Andy, Edd's car is the one to consider at the moment over all the others for sale. I think it's missing a one on the front of the price, seriously.

You have to think of a 944 as a £10K car IMO, whatever price you pay for it, as it'll cost you somewhere. Buying the best condition bodywork and paint has to be the first consideration unless you want a restoration project: even a small amount of metalwork and paint will cost more than fitting a new engine or gearbox.

 

[Hallsy]

Andy - I agree on both counts. Usually when I've bought performance or 'enthusiast' cars I have bought forum cars, but that's not to say that's the only place you'll find a good one - just more likely a safer bet. I've bought enough cars over the years to not buy a lemon, but without being fully familiar with the 944, the above points were what I would questions as normal vs tired.

It was just outside Bury St Edmunds, so close enough to me to take a look anyway. After a recent purchase of an S2000 I only really have around £3k left in the kitty for the 944 initial purchase, I had considered stretching it, but thought that ought to be a healthy budget for a Lux or S - I could be wrong, but I consider £3k to be quite strong money for a Lux unless a real minter or garage queen.

I see you're just up the road from me (I'm in Sudbury), would love a look around your 944S some time if you could spare the time

JM1962/Paul - good to hear, I must admit it has been some time since I have driven something as old as this (I recently owned a mk1 MX5 for three years, but I would argue that these are a more modern design than the 944), so on the way home I did think to myself that it was probably a few minor issues - but I thought it best to ask those that know more about them than I do!!

I'm a car enthusiast, and engineer, so more than happy to tinker, but it would be nice to buy something that doesn't need major work from the off. The paintwork was generally good, it had had some paint in places but it looked OK, and the front valance & bumper cover had faded - but I am quite comfortable with body repair/prep, and a friend of mine owns a spray booth - so that is handy if neessary.

I forgot my torch unfortunately, but wasn't sure how easy the vents would pop out without breaking.

I have put a wanted advert up on here, but not many for sale at the mo. Cooperman's or Hairyarse's would be getting a look if I could stretch the budget though.

 

[andy watson]

Anytime you want to catch up give me a call always happy to show off my car []
Weekends are best

07920589750

 

[Hallsy]

OK Andy, how about tomorrow some time - I'll be at a loose end!

 

[andy watson]

How about 10.30?

Send me me over a text and I will give you my address

 

[Hallsy]

It's a date

 

[andy watson]

Excellent, O am sure Lin will sort outsome Bacon sarnies []

 

[edh]

Hope andy is going to clean his car as its usually a bit scruffy...[]

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Hope andy is going to clean his car as its usually a bit scruffy...

Indeed. []

 

[andy watson]

Going to get up really early to get her ready, 10.15 should do it [][][]

 

[ChasR]

To answer your questions . Some may say I am a little more laisez-faire in my attitude towards cars but I do agree with buying the best you can afford even if it predictable advice and more 'desirable' cars are similar money. But I guess we all like a challenge, even when aware of all of the bills .

ORIGINAL: Hallsy

I went over to look at a 944 that wasn' too far from me today, I have read up on 944's for years, but this was the first one I have even sat in!!

Anyway, overall the car looked fairly straight, it had had some paint, but not loads, and it looked to be decent enough - a few small marks & dents, but nothing major really - just the things you notice up close. It had good history, pretty much fully stamped book, lots of receipts, etc. Belts done recently and clutch at ~96k in 2006.

The body assuming there is no rust on the sills (or inside by peering inside them which is quite easily done by removing the aperture on the B post) sounds OK and possibly may encourage you to drive it more (or maybe I am simply too paranoid about driving a tidy car anywhere in municipal places like car parks.

IMHO to clutch being done is a great sign, and is potentially a weight off one's shoulders

My questions are around things I noticed that may or may not be normal, which I'm not sure about with this being the first one I've looked at!

- From the off, the hatch was quite stiff, it opened, but didn't pop open - normal?

When you say stiff, how do you mean? Quite a few will not pop open though. A combination of buying new struts and adjusting the tailgate position can sort this

- the iginition barrel felt quite loose and vague

Again IMHO this is one of the those things. It should last out but I have seen superb cars if iffy barrels and shot cars with great ones (albeit they may have been changed).


- there was some oil leaking onto the exhaust manifold, not loads, but enough that I noticed

Hopefully it was not coming from the HG area! It most likely is the cam cover gasket weeping but I would check to be sure (as even they AFAIK are not so straightforward to change on 2.5s and 2.7s (the cambox also holds on the rear cambelt cover at the top)). It could also be the rear cork gasket which can be a pain to change (lack of room)


- inside the car the headlining parts that run along the sides of the roof panel looked a little unfinished, like you could see some of the roof panel. Ditto for the handbrake area, the carpet looked a little exposed - normal?

The headlining was a discussion a number of us (you know who you are ) during the course of a certain day recently. Quite a few headlinings can drop around the tailgate area, but generally speaking as long as there are no rips you should be able to stick on the parts which are coming off with some contact adhesive As long as the carpet is not too bare around the handbrake I would not worry personally (it is adjusted where the cutouts are in the carpet)


- the clutch pedal was very light, with little feel. Not such a bad thing maybe, but I expected the clutch to be heavy on a car of this age?

I have only ever driven one 944 with a mega light clutch and it was a bit of a shock, especially after I changed the clutch in my old S2 only for it to not be as light. The car in question with a mega light clutch though was the only exception and it has to be one the tidiest 944s I have ever had to the pleasure of driving


- the throttle pedal was very stiff - easy fix?

How long is a piece of string? Assuming the throttle spindle itself is OK this could be as simple as a frayed cable (I seem to remember these not being terribly awkward to change) and/or a bent floor around the pedal due to incorrect jacking (nothing a mallet cannot sort if it has only rarely been jacked around the accelerator area


- the PAS was quite heavy, I've had older PAS'd cars and one non-PAS car, and this felt very heavy comparably, but then I have been driving modern cars more recently so might feel exaggerated. It was most noticed turning in/out of junctions, etc.

Yup, normal. This has been the same for all of the 944s I have driven. As a matter of fact when I let a friend once move my 951 (who until then thought PAS was for wusses (saying too many cars were too light) he was in for a shock with the 944 almost complaining straight away (You can now see why some people with 944s and larger wheels wish to go back to PAS from a manual rack


- gear selection was vague - linkage?

Another how long is a piece of string question. In most cases a new shifter level (£35 from Porsche) will reduce the proportion of slack present but possibly not completely erradicate it (that can be down to a worn bush or linkage on the gearbox itself (as one thread details on the forum at this very moment ))


Overall the car looked and sounded OK, paperwork was good, etc - but the heavy steering, mega light clutch and heavy throttle made for a strange feeling car. I didn't get to drive the car at speed as there was no tax so I had to take it down a quiet lane nearby. Just trying to get a feel for what is 'normal' for one of these.

Only other thing that bothered me, was as the seller had taken it in and not really used it, I couldn't get a good/bad owner feeling from him.

I have a couple of others on the radar, but sadly two of them have belt changes that are years out of date (but within mileage) - it does seem quite common that owners don't stick to the 4-5 year interval.

Quite a few do run the risk. My S2 was right on the limit of being changed (although it had only covered 15k in that time) yet the owner was not too phased (although he did spend a small fortune on it) plus the cost will put people off (I know that years ago I got Dayco belts and INA rollers for my S2 at £130 allegedly at trade (the specialists wanted a little more than that). Even on many modern cars cambelt kits are a little cheaper


Any advice appreciated

And finally if I did not bore you with the above, a final few (well, not quite) words.

FWIW I saw 2 to 3 944s prior to acquiring my S2 years ago. The first was a forum (Porker forum of sorts) owned Lux for £1500 which despite others calling tidy at meets (it did look clean I must say) was quite a dog to drive IMHO (crap brakes, knocks, electrical issues, vague steering and iffy 'solid' sills were the tip of the iceberg. The next car was a local 2.7 for £2.5k which much better but I never gelled with it (and neither did the next owner who seemed to return it back to the garage after it barely moved outside his house (I used to work around the corner from where the owner of that car lived).

I finally settled on an S2 for just shy of £2k but with the catch of an iffy engine. Bar the engine I still believe that was a better bet over the other two cars (the engine swap still worked out cheaper than changing the sills on the first 2.5 I saw (before I even thought of the tackling it's other isses) with it having a half decent body with new brakes (discs, pads and braided hoses), suspension (arm, TREs, track rods and steering shaft) with other little details like Cup Mirrors and Carrera wheels. It generally being a tidy car also helped of it being a better cared for example over the other two (it had been fully resprayed to boot). However, even that did not compare with my current 944 or certain minty fresh examples I drove in terms of driving dynamics and enjoyment.

My Turbo is a usable example IMO, not the best but not the worst by a long shot (others may agree here), and I am happy for you to take a look in terms of what to look for. Andy Watson's car however is a real peach it has to be said, and it was certainly stunning whenever I have seen it. With the work that car has had done over the years it should give you an idea of what a good 944 should be like.

Forgive me for one of the longest (and possibly most incoherent and false) posts in the history of PCGB, but I do hope you can take away something useful from the above!

 

[Hallsy]

Thanks for that Chas - good advice Out of interest, what didn't you like about the 2.7? Was it the car in general or the engine?

Andy - nice to meet you & Lin today, thanks very much for showing me around your lovely 944S today, not to mention the bacon sarnies!! Really nice to meet a true enthusiast, and a very nice 944 - I certainly have a benchmark for a good one now!! Was really good to get a feel for the 'S' aswell, I was surprised at how the apparent low down torque did cause a lower gear selection than normal when pootling, but once on song I thought it pulled quite well. Just means you have to be a bit more active with your gearchanges. I'm certainly keeping an S on my list anyway.

Tbh - I have pretty much decided that I will be happy with any model, as long as it is a loved example. I am considering stretching my budget a bit, and if I did, Hairyarse's turbo would be getting a look - but I go away on holiday next week, so will see how the wallet feels after that!!

Thanks again Andy - top guy []

 

[ChasR]

ORIGINAL: Hallsy

Thanks for that Chas - good advice Out of interest, what didn't you like about the 2.7? Was it the car in general or the engine?

Andy - nice to meet you & Lin today, thanks very much for showing me around your lovely 944S today, not to mention the bacon sarnies!! Really nice to meet a true enthusiast, and a very nice 944 - I certainly have a benchmark for a good one now!! Was really good to get a feel for the 'S' aswell, I was surprised at how the apparent low down torque did cause a lower gear selection than normal when pootling, but once on song I thought it pulled quite well. Just means you have to be a bit more active with your gearchanges. I'm certainly keeping an S on my list anyway.

Tbh - I have pretty much decided that I will be happy with any model, as long as it is a loved example. I am considering stretching my budget a bit, and if I did, Hairyarse's turbo would be getting a look - but I go away on holiday next week, so will see how the wallet feels after that!!

Thanks again Andy - top guy []

I am glad you were not put to sleep!

It was just the car, with it having signs of paint where there shouldn't be, a different rear light cluster to the other side, wheels with thinning lacquer, the little things.

 

[andy watson]

Your welcome Andy, it was good to meet you too, look forward to seeing you again soon - in a 44'

 

[jasonp]

hallsy,,as well as daves[hairy arse] turbo,,,edds s2 iif you could stretch to that would be an amazing 1st 944 to own as well,,all the work done plus lots and lots more,,imho opinion a massive amount of car for the money,,goood luck,,,jasonp

 

[Hallsy]

Either would be seriously tempting Jason, but as I say, just not sure that I'll be stretching the budget that far.

Not 100%, but Andy was saying that Ed possibly had a buyer for his today.

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Either would be seriously tempting Jason, but as I say, just not sure that I'll be stretching the budget that far.

We all say that when we see a shiny Porsche available for a limited budget, but most people would agree that after a year or two you'll have spent the same on a cheap car as you would buying a more expensive one....[&o]