Is it an S or an SC??

[Haitham]

Hi there. First post for me. Hope someone can point me in the right direction.
I've just purchased a 1977 911 badged as an SC. 3.0. The Porsche Certificate Of Authenticity the previous owner had from Porsche GB lists the car as an 911 S with a few tasty options (Tartan Dress interior (sadly no longer), Bilsteins, Electric mirrors etc). It was registered in Nov 77. Everyone tells me the SC started in 78. Is it an S or an SC. How do I find out? Any advice on where to get to the bottom of this would be much appreciated.

 

[chrishak]

The VIN will tell you, cross-reference it with a list which will be readily available on-line - or if you've got Paul Frere's Porsche 911 Story, or Peter Morgan's recognition guide they're in there.

 

[Haitham]

Thanks Chrishak. Will take a look and see what I unearth

 

[dij999]

Pre 78 not an SC but further to previous suggestion you can get a lot of technical info to convince you one way or the other on 'Simon's 911 SC' site.

http://www.adelgigs.com/911scproductiondata.shtml

 

[Haitham]

Many thanks for the replies. I've checked the vin number on https://www.stuttcars.com/technical/vin-decoder/ but the 5th digit of my vin which is a 3 covers both 911s and 911sc models. First part of the vin is 91183.

 

[Old and Slow]

Hi BusyBee,
According to Michael Cotton's 911 Guide, the 1977-8 year Targas with chassis numbers in the range 9118310001 to 9118311729 are non-US versions of the SC. This is the first year that the SC suffix was used. Engine details are 2994cc, CR 8.5:1, power = 180bhp at 5500rpm (design based on an up-rated Carrera 3 engine).
IIRC (but I stand to be corrected) the car industry years run from April to March which is why it is an '77-8 year.
Hope this helps.
Philip

 

[Haitham]

Hi Philip. Many thanks. I only started thinking about this when I spotted a certificate of authenticity from Porsche GB amongst the paperwork with the car listing it as model/year 1978/911S Targa. The car was manufactured in October 77 and registered in Nov 77.

 

[chrishak]

Hi BusyBee,
According to Michael Cotton's 911 Guide, the 1977-8 year Targas with chassis numbers in the range 9118310001 to 9118311729 are non-US versions of the SC. This is the first year that the SC suffix was used. Engine details are 2994cc, CR 8.5:1, power = 180bhp at 5500rpm (design based on an up-rated Carrera 3 engine).
IIRC (but I stand to be corrected) the car industry years run from April to March which is why it is an '77-8 year.
Hope this helps.
Philip

Good info.
Model years run from the factory's return to work month following the annual summer shutdown period, generally August. This is the time that major model changes are implemented.

 

[Old and Slow]

Another bit of info that might help:
The 911S Targa in 1976-7 was the US model, the RoW cars being badged as 911, and these all had chassis numbers in the range 91172xxxxx or 91173xxxxx.
There was a 911 Carrera 3 Targa in 1976-7 with chassis numbers 911761xxxx, but this would have been badged Carrera 3.
Also, it is the date of manufacture that defines the model, not the date of first registration.
From 1977-8 the 3.0 engines all had the air pump fitted across the range, whereas I think this was only on the US cars in earlier years.
If yours is LHD then it will be an import and unless you have full history for it, there could be many changes that will need investigating.
Of course the published data I'm referring to might not be as accurate at the manufacturer's records, but on the other hand nobody's perfect, and errors can creep in anywhere.

 

[Haitham]

Hi Philip. Thanks again. Great info. The car is RHD supplied by Porsche UK. Badged as an SC but just can't work out why the certificate of authenticity from Porsche themselves calls it an S. Not too bothered but someone mentioned that the S was a a higher state of tune ??

 

[Old and Slow]

If there is an error, I'd think it came from Porsche GB, and the factory records, if you were to contact them, would be more accurate. I can't find any record of an "S" badge after 1976-7, from 77 to 83 they are SC and from 83-4 on they are Carrera. Up until 1974-5 the "S" was the 8.5:1 CR (the standard 911 was 8.0:1) so it is correct to say the "S" versions are higher tuned, but not on cars after 1975 when 8.5:1 CR became standard across the range, and the "S" designation was used on the US models.
Yours should have an air pump (if it hasn't been removed, mine has) and CDI ignition and 11 blades on the fan, the 5-speed gearbox and a brake servo. The other changes to the SC are internal to the engine, so not obvious.

 

[Haitham]

Thanks Philip. You're a star. Not sure what the air pump is or where it should be lol (please excuse my ignorance - newbie). It's a 915 5 speed box. Here's the motor. Rebuilt in 2015 by D9 in Bridgend.

 

[alastairp]

I think you will find that a 911S would have a 2.7 engine - does your V5 indicate the cc or can your engine builder not confirm whether you have a 2.7 or 3.0 motor?
The production 3.0 was introduced with the Carrera 3 for 1976 model year.
When the SC was introduced for 1978 model year (production commencing August 1977), this became the only model in the normally-aspirated 911 range.
For what it is worth, Porsche GB Certificates of Authenticity are not particularly accurate.
PS - Very tidy engine compartment with no air pump present - it would normally be taking up a big bit of space between the distributor and the LHS engine mounting, but you can see the casting for the two bolts for the mounting bracket on the timing chain cover.

 

[Peter_Bull]

There is no air pump fitted to your car.

This would have been fitted to the left of the main fan (as on my previous SC above) and used the additional drive on the outside of the fan pulley. Bely removed on my car to give additional bhp.

Sadly sold my SC some year ago with the pump still fitted.

You car looks beautiful by the way.

 

[Haitham]

Thank you. Its a 3.0L so guess it must be an SC built at the very beginning of the introduction of the model. Bit of a shame regarding the accuracy of Porsche GB Certificates of Authenticity. Would have been great to receive a truly accurate build spec/certificate. Thanks for the info on the air pump. Looking to learn

 

[Peter_Bull]

I would suggest its a typo from the inputter at Porsche GB Reading. Why not write to them with the info you have and they may reissue another certificate.

 

[Haitham]

Thanks so much Peter. Great photo explaining where the air pump sits. Read somewhere that these were sometimes removed as it gives an extra few bhp. What did it do? And many thanks for the compliment. Scarlett as she's affectionately known will be chuffed to bits

 

[Haitham]

I would suggest its a typo from the inputter at Porsche GB Reading. Why not write to them with the info you have and they may reissue another certificate.

Will do Peter. The certificate I have was issued to the last owner so I'm due to get one in my name

 

[polar964]

In Porsche GBs defense, I believe they acknowledge there may be errors. Providing you can verify the error or errors, I'm sure they will adjust accordingly.

ps. welcome to air cooled ownership enjoy .... once bitten for ever smitten!

 

[alastairp]

Thanks so much Peter. Great photo explaining where the air pump sits. Read somewhere that these were sometimes removed as it gives an extra few bhp. What did it do? And many thanks for the compliment. Scarlett as she's affectionately known will be chuffed to bits

The pump was driven by a belt from the crankshaft pulley and was designed to inject air into the exhaust gases in an attempt to meet emissions regulations by providing fresh air as a source of oxygen in the exhaust port to assist with combustion of any un-burnt hydrocarbons. Adding fresh air to the exhaust gases also gave the impression that the emissions were diluted and therefore somehow less - A Neanderthal version of VW's "cheat" software many years later.....
The "additional" bhp referred to will basically be those saved by the engine not having to power the air pump.
Many owners removed the drive belt (as in Peter's picture), but through time most removed the whole pump to also save some weight. When doing this, the pipework on the bottom of the engine into the exhaust ports should be removed too and the injector holes plugged with grub screws.