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Brake upgrade - what do I need?

andy watson

Moderator
Afternoon gents,

I am looking to upgrade the braking on my 1987 S, I was looking at the Wilwood set up but they only make an upgrade for the front axle, so if I was to change to an S2 or Turbo brake set up what are the parts I would need to buy?

All help and advice welcomed.

 
For the rear, S2 callipers will bolt straight on. You will need a couple of washers to centralise the calliper and I imagine a brake bias valve if mixing callipers about. Having done this in the past I preferred the feel of the ate units to brembo.

Edited to add
To fit the brembo's rather than wilwoods to the front, you would need s2, 968 or late offset turbo hubs.
 
Forgot to add, bigger brakes won't fit under the 15 inch wheels.

I'm not sure it's worth the effort but I do have in my shed 968 hubs and disks with lots of life left.
 
Andy serious question , when do you feel your cars brakes are letting you down ? Is this on road or on track.

Regards Mas
 
Cheers James,

If I was going to OPC to buy, would I need anything else other than.

S2 Rear calipers
S2 Front Hubs
S2 Front calipers
S2 Front disks

Thanks



 

ORIGINAL: ukmastiff

Andy serious question , when do you feel your cars brakes are letting you down ? Is this on road or on track.

Regards Mas

Mas,

On the road, I have never ever been happy or confident with the brakes on my car.
 
I asked because I havn't really heard folk complain re the brakes on an 's' in normal use and wonder if yours have something wrong with them that could be sorted without a major 'upgrade' ?.

I know I'm no braking expert but I have had a lot of cars over the years and very few have had insufficient braking systems under normal use , even quite spirited use. O.K don't even ask re Rover 3500 SD1's ( I had two), they didnt have brakes , they had squeaky things at the front that told you when you 'should be slowing down'.

On a serious note are 's' brakes known for being that bad ?

 
Maste cylinder is different I think between the S and S2/Turbo. I probably have all that you need Andy. I may even have a pair of M030 front calipers as well. I know I have a set of mint rear calipers. Have the front hubs and uprights as well.
Alasdair
 

ORIGINAL: ukmastiff

I asked because I havn't really heard folk complain re the brakes on an 's' in normal use and wonder if yours have something wrong with them that could be sorted without a major 'upgrade' ?.

I know I'm no braking expert but I have had a lot of cars over the years and very few have had insufficient braking systems under normal use , even quite spirited use. O.K don't even ask re Rover 3500 SD1's ( I had two), they didnt have brakes , they had squeaky things at the front that told you when you 'should be slowing down'.

On a serious note are 's' brakes known for being that bad ?

Haven't driven another 44 for over 10 years, forgotten what they were like to be honest, but with mine 70+ they don't stop you quick

Stamp on them around 40/50 and they can lock up.


 
Opc? That stuff new is going 2 work out pricey, u will need 16" + wheels.

MIT be a good idea 2 source later modle types. My S brakes don't feel a lot differnt 2 my turbo m030 !!!! Iv not locked the turbos up yet, but I did twice on the S. even warped a brand new disc.
 

ORIGINAL: sulzeruk

Maste cylinder is different I think between the S and S2/Turbo. I probably have all that you need Andy. I may even have a pair of M030 front calipers as well. I know I have a set of mint rear calipers. Have the front hubs and uprights as well.
Alasdair

Alasdair,

Can you PM the cost to me?

Thanks
Andy
 

ORIGINAL: andy watson


ORIGINAL: ukmastiff

I asked because I havn't really heard folk complain re the brakes on an 's' in normal use and wonder if yours have something wrong with them that could be sorted without a major 'upgrade' ?.

I know I'm no braking expert but I have had a lot of cars over the years and very few have had insufficient braking systems under normal use , even quite spirited use. O.K don't even ask re Rover 3500 SD1's ( I had two), they didnt have brakes , they had squeaky things at the front that told you when you 'should be slowing down'.

On a serious note are 's' brakes known for being that bad ?

Haven't driven another 44 for over 10 years, forgotten what they were like to be honest, but with mine 70+ they don't stop you quick

Stamp on them around 40/50 and they can lock up.
Andy, silly question but have pads been bedded in properly? Mine felt rubbish for a few months after pad change. Then bedded in properly (10 rapid stops from 80-10mph) then drive for about 15 mins with no braking to let coating cool. After 5 stops they felt terrible. Brake fade + stench in cabin. Carried on for further 5 and now they feel great.
 
Haven't driven another 44 for over 10 years, forgotten what they were like to be honest, but with mine 70+ they don't stop you quick

Stamp on them around 40/50 and they can lock up.

Guessing the S doesn't have ABS, so bigger brakes won't make any difference here? In fact, I guess you could argue that the later, bigger brakes were designed to work with the ABS system, so might even be worse? I don't know. I'd not be surprised, though, that they lock up when you stamp on them, and that's possibly down to how we've come to rely on the safety systems too much when we drive more modern cars every day.

The 944 is a car, IMO, that fit's very neatly between being a real "vintage" car, i.e. slow, unreliable and expensive, and the modern cars, that are soul-less, detached, and full of expensive electronics waiting to go wrong. Accept it for what it is, if you try to change it too much you create something that's arguably worse than you started out with.

My Lux had pretty decent brakes, but my daily-driver van doesn't have ABS either so I'd never owned anything before with that benefit. When I got the S2 I knew the calipers needed attention, but I was really disappointed with the brakes. I'd heard the stories about how they were a massive improvement over the Lux, but they weren't really any stronger at all. After nearly £2K of work on them, with 4 refurbed calipers, new discs and pads all round, new lines and fluid etc. they now work like they are brand new. Are they better in reality? Yes. The whole S2 system is stronger, but the ABS is an integral part of that. I would admit to being careless and expecting too much of the Lux brakes a few times, although it would only be country roads with wet leaves in my case (I should know better[8|]). The S2 has made me brake later and harder, and I have had the ABS kick in a fair few times on wet roads.

In summary, would I want the S2 brakes on the Lux? No. The S2 system is designed to deal with a car that's over-tyred, and likely to be going in to a braking "event" at a higher speed. The ABS is, in my experience, more help here than bigger brakes; once you're over-commited in a car without ABS, bigger brakes might only make the lock-up more of a problem?
 
I've upgraded the brakes on my car recently and the difference was night and day, I went for new (m030) calipers, disks and pads all round. Much more confidence under braking now, and on track its just awesome, it completes the package for me. Not cheap though. Andy if your not taking the car on track you may find a caliper refurb (if required), a decent set of pads and new fluid are all you need.


Edd
 

ORIGINAL: pauljmcnulty

Haven't driven another 44 for over 10 years, forgotten what they were like to be honest, but with mine 70+ they don't stop you quick

Stamp on them around 40/50 and they can lock up.

Guessing the S doesn't have ABS, so bigger brakes won't make any difference here? In fact, I guess you could argue that the later, bigger brakes were designed to work with the ABS system, so might even be worse? I don't know. I'd not be surprised, though, that they lock up when you stamp on them, and that's possibly down to how we've come to rely on the safety systems too much when we drive more modern cars every day.

The 944 is a car, IMO, that fit's very neatly between being a real "vintage" car, i.e. slow, unreliable and expensive, and the modern cars, that are soul-less, detached, and full of expensive electronics waiting to go wrong. Accept it for what it is, if you try to change it too much you create something that's arguably worse than you started out with.

My Lux had pretty decent brakes, but my daily-driver van doesn't have ABS either so I'd never owned anything before with that benefit. When I got the S2 I knew the calipers needed attention, but I was really disappointed with the brakes. I'd heard the stories about how they were a massive improvement over the Lux, but they weren't really any stronger at all. After nearly £2K of work on them, with 4 refurbed calipers, new discs and pads all round, new lines and fluid etc. they now work like they are brand new. Are they better in reality? Yes. The whole S2 system is stronger, but the ABS is an integral part of that. I would admit to being careless and expecting too much of the Lux brakes a few times, although it would only be country roads with wet leaves in my case (I should know better[8|]). The S2 has made me brake later and harder, and I have had the ABS kick in a fair few times on wet roads.

In summary, would I want the S2 brakes on the Lux? No. The S2 system is designed to deal with a car that's over-tyred, and likely to be going in to a braking "event" at a higher speed. The ABS is, in my experience, more help here than bigger brakes; once you're over-commited in a car without ABS, bigger brakes might only make the lock-up more of a problem?

Hi Paul,

Lot of sense there and I agree with most of what you say, the locking up is something I have learnt to live with and not having ABS is not a problem, what is, is not being able to drive shall we say "swiftly" in the comfortable knowledge that I can stop in a hurry should I need!

The old girl is treated with respect of her age and modest capabilities compared to today's machines, I have been for somtime looking to improve the braking system for my own comfort if nothing else, I am just trying to seek the most effective way forward for me


 

ORIGINAL: Copperman05

I've upgraded the brakes on my car recently and the difference was night and day, I went for new (m030) calipers, disks and pads all round. Much more confidence under braking now, and on track its just awesome, it completes the package for me. Not cheap though. Andy if your not taking the car on track you may find a caliper refurb (if required), a decent set of pads and new fluid are all you need.


Edd

Half of this is your fault!! [:D]

Have recent OPC pads and brake fluid has been changed every 2 years, maybe caliper refurb is the answer
 
What did I do?[:D]


Re the Wilwood, the front calipers do 80% of the work anyway, if you want to upgrade your brakes without the expense and hassle of the later types why not fit the Wilwoods and refurb the rears? I think others have fitted the larger brakes to the lux models with good success in the past, dont forget people also fit the big blacks and reds to these (later) cars, although they are probably primarily for the track (and much faster).


Edd
 
The calipers were used on 911s including the first Turbo, as well as heavier and more powerful 928s, so they should be more than adequate for an 944, if theyre working properly.
 
Andy,

Have to say, I agree with the comments from McNulters and Edd - are you sure your brakes are all working as they should? Porsche didn't make cars with bad brakes, and they tended to make cars where the braking capability was matched to the power of the car. If the brakes on your car aren't up to snuff then I'd be wondering whether there is something wrong before spending quite a lot of money on building something that Porsche never designed.

The Teves calipers were a sliding design - are they sliding as they should? How old are the disks and pads? How old is the fluid? When were they last overhauled? I'd suggest that a couple of hundred on a brake re-build may well end up with a car which is nicer to drive than several times more cash for a new brake set-up.


Oli.
 

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