Advice regarding potential purchase of 944 S2

[willber]

Hello all,

I am looking to buy a Porsche 944 S2 to use as a fast road / track toy. [8D]

I have previously completely rebuilt and modified a MK2 Golf GTI so I am very comfortable with spanners.

The car I am looking at is on eBay at a rather attractive price but has been CAT C recorded in the past (break in damage) This is something that I am not overly concerned about as the car is not going to be kept standard or as a garage queen or concours project!

It has done 155k miles and had new clutch, cam belt and balance belts circa 123k. What is the interval for these? Will they need doing soon? I am unsure of the date when the work was carried out.

I intend to fit coilovers to the car and possibly some wheel spacers to bring the wheels out into the arches. Is there an issue with geometry here requiring 968 castor mounts to be fitted to bring the geo back good? or am I imaging things?! I don't want to go too far with mods as I did this with my Golf and it spent too much time off the road and was, in all honesty, a bit too much hard work on the road.

Would appreciate any advice you may have as I am fairly green to Porsches but very much like the idea of a 944 as a weekend toy.

Will

 

[pauljmcnulty]

Hi,

Belts have a four year maximum, so worth checking and probably allowing for. Not a deal breaker, but it could be a big belt service if you need the water pump, and it's worth checking the timing chain had been looked at (it should have been at that mileage).

Nice to have a new clutch, that should see the car out. I'd consider doing the head gasket, they are becoming a problem now and it'll only be worse if it goes on track! Other big bills would be things like brake caliper overhaul, and fuel/brake lines. Not a huge problem if you DIY.

Main thing is to check the bodywork. Look inside the sills through the black vent in the door pillar, and check the rear suspension mount area. You're unlikely to find one in perfect rust-free condition, but they can be a LOT worse under the stone-guard paint that hides rust until it's pretty far gone.

 

[Diver944]

The official line for cam and balance belts are every 4 years or 48000 miles, whichever comes first, though a lot of us err on the side of caution and change them every 3 years. Belts are a heck of a lot cheaper than a Porsche 16v engine rebuild.

Another thing to check for is the camchain and tensioner inside the head. There is no offficial service interval for this but there have been many that fail around the 100k mark

The 968 castor mounts are required for 17" wheels, but as they are only around £40 and much firmer than the tired 944 original I would recommend changing them even if you stick with 16" wheels. There is no issue with geometry using spacers but they will wear out the bearings quicker.

 

[Copperman05]

ORIGINAL: willber

Hello all,

I am looking to buy a Porsche 944 S2 to use as a fast road / track toy. [8D]

Good man! They make great track cars. (As well as fast road, GT, daily drives and shopping trolleys)

I have previously completely rebuilt and modified a MK2 Golf GTI so I am very comfortable with spanners.

Will save you £££
[/quote]

It has done 155k miles and had new clutch, cam belt and balance belts circa 123k. What is the interval for these? Will they need doing soon? I am unsure of the date when the work was carried out.

Ok on mileage but when they were done may be more relevant, if more than 4 years they will need doing asap.

I intend to fit coilovers to the car and possibly some wheel spacers to bring the wheels out into the arches. Is there an issue with geometry here requiring 968 castor mounts to be fitted to bring the geo back good?
Would appreciate any advice you may have as I am fairly green to Porsches but very much like the idea of a 944 as a weekend toy.

No issues, I would def recommend the 968 castor mounts, much more responsive steering feel, you will need geo after fitting.
I am organising a 944 track day next year, hopefully you will have found your S2 by then and will be able to join us?


Edd

 

[willber]

Thanks to you both for the replies they are most helpful. EDIT to include copperman05 also, thanks!

I have since found that the 'idlers, tensioners, balance belts and cam belt' were done 3 years ago, so will need to be replaced soonish.

I am not fully up to speed on the belt setup. I know there are balance belts but is there another belt referred to as the cam belt which is different to the cam chain? Is the cam chain a DIY job?

The sills are OK as far as reported but obviously I shall check for myself. I am not stranger to rot after owning the Golf and spent a lot of time repairing it on that so will be extra vigilant.

The car was supplied at some point by Paul Devyea so hopefully that goes someway to expecting it to still be in reasonable nick!

 

[Mike_Pollock]

Cam belt drives exhaust cam - which drives the inlet via a central chain!

There is also the balance shaft belt, on the front of the engine.

Edit - Paul knows the front engined cars well.
The vent in the B pillar has a clip which you lift up to remove, then use a mobile phone with flash to give a reasonable idea of the sills condition.
Do both - they can be very different!

 

[944 man]

ORIGINAL: Copperman05

ORIGINAL: willber

I have previously completely rebuilt and modified a MK2 Golf GTI so I am very comfortable with spanners.

Will save you £££

[/quote]

Youll recognise some of the parts too!

 

[willber]

ORIGINAL: A9XXC

Cam belt drives exhaust cam - which drives the inlet via a central chain!

There is also the balance shaft belt, on the front of the engine.

Edit - Paul knows the front engined cars well.
The vent in the B pillar has a clip which you lift up to remove, then use a mobile phone with flash to give a reasonable idea of the sills condition.
Do both - they can be very different!

I think I understand now, the timing is via a belt and there is an inter-cam chain and tensioner under the rocker cover? Is that correct? So the timing belt and balance belts and water pump belts are all at the front behind the upper and lower covers?

Yep, will do that check via the b pillar also!

944Man: I thought the VW parts were found the the van....ahem!!....924??? []


Thanks for the advice and help chaps!

 

[944 man]

Thats a myth thats (still) popular because people like to rubbish the cars (usually people who like to ape Jeremy Clarkson and stupidly talk of 'torques' etc...).

Porsche didnt use a VW van engine, they modified what was originally a DKW engine (developed when they were owned by Mercedes and before their sale to Auto Union), which Auto Union / AUDI converted to OHC for their new 100 model. Porsche added a steel crank, fuel injection and re-worked the cylinder head which gave it a pretty impressive for 1974 125bhp, whilst Ford managed about 90-odd bhp in their 2.0l OHC engines.

VW later used a low compression version of the AUDI engine in their petrol LT van. Youll be relieved to know that they arent actually Mk1 Golf door handles either! []



Simon

 

[willber]

Thanks for the explanation, although my remark was very much tongue in cheek, as I hope you realised!

Are there actually any bits off the MK2 on a 944 then?

Just watched a guide to replacing the belts on youtube, looks like a nice Saturday job with plenty of cups of tea. []

 

[pauljmcnulty]

It always makes me laugh when people criticise the 944 for having "VW" bits in it. They mostly drive Audis... [&:]

The club has two belt tensioning tools free to borrow for members. Cheap plug, but it's a nice benefit.

 

[Chrishazle]

A Paul Devyea car - which makes me suspect you're down Kent way. His cars are advertised at Project Nine at Marden, and the owner there, Cliffe Lowe, is very knowledgable and helpful when it comes to FE Porsches. He services my 968, and I never hesitate in recommending him to other Porsche owners. Might be worth a call to him to see if he knows the car in question.

As for camber bushings, best soursce is K300 - Hartech bushings at good prices. Project Nine also have the equipment and knowledge to do the geo after fitting - Cliffe recently spent loads of dosh buying the gear!

 

[david924s]

ORIGINAL: willber

Thanks for the explanation, although my remark was very much tongue in cheek, as I hope you realised!

Are there actually any bits off the MK2 on a 944 then?

Just watched a guide to replacing the belts on youtube, looks like a nice Saturday job with plenty of cups of tea. []

Yes the courtesy light from a Mk2 fits a 944 and comes with a delay timer very useful modification for those without one.

 

[simkin911]

The car (I think) you are looking at was sold on Ebay previously with attempted break in / theft damage for around £1250. Now since repaired, it looked a nice car then (despite the minor-ish damage) and still does now.

 

[944 man]

ORIGINAL: willber

Thanks for the explanation, although my remark was very much tongue in cheek, as I hope you realised!

Are there actually any bits off the MK2 on a 944 then?

Just watched a guide to replacing the belts on youtube, looks like a nice Saturday job with plenty of cups of tea. []

Window winders. Front wishbones (exactly on series one cars, interchangeable with 1986 series two and broadly similar and can be adapted for 1987>series two cars). Interior door handles, headlamps (all cars to 1987). Lots of other small parts which I cant remember...

Oh yes: series one cars share Mk1 switchgear, as well as the ignition lock assembly. Steering wheels are interchangeable too, but be careful fitting the boss and horn ring as the wrong combination will set a series two car on fire!

 

[944 man]

ORIGINAL: david924s

Yes the courtesy light from a Mk2 fits a 944 and comes with a delay timer very useful modification for those without one.

Can you embellish that a little Dave? Ive increased my light output in the front using an LED bulb, but I could really do with a delay too.


Simon

 

[willber]

ORIGINAL: Chrishazle

A Paul Devyea car - which makes me suspect you're down Kent way. His cars are advertised at Project Nine at Marden, and the owner there, Cliffe Lowe, is very knowledgable and helpful when it comes to FE Porsches. He services my 968, and I never hesitate in recommending him to other Porsche owners. Might be worth a call to him to see if he knows the car in question.

As for camber bushings, best soursce is K300 - Hartech bushings at good prices. Project Nine also have the equipment and knowledge to do the geo after fitting - Cliffe recently spent loads of dosh buying the gear!

I am actually in Leeds but noticed the window sticker and plate surrounds on the car. It has Monarch sill plates so is from Warwick originally from what I can google. I have emailed Paul Devyea to see if he/they can shed any light on the car.

ORIGINAL: simkin911

The car (I think) you are looking at was sold on Ebay previously with attempted break in / theft damage for around £1250. Now since repaired, it looked a nice car then (despite the minor-ish damage) and still does now.

Thanks for the info, I have been watching the car for a while before I sold my Golf. The Cat C came in feb 2012 so will be easy to tell if it all tallies up. Just trying to weigh up the pro's and con's of buying a Cat C and whether it will really affect me and what I want to do with the car.

 

[zcacogp]

ORIGINAL: willber

I think I understand now, the timing is via a belt and there is an inter-cam chain and tensioner under the rocker cover? Is that correct? So the timing belt and balance belts and water pump belts are all at the front behind the upper and lower covers?

Hello Will, good to read your post. I too came from a VW Golf-owning background to a 944S2 and hence have trod that path before you got there! I had 6 golfs (Mk1 1300cc, Mk1 1800cc GTi - later converted to 16v KR engine, Mk3 8v GTi, Mk1 1600cc driver, Mk1 1800cc GTi, Mk2 8v GTi) and was seriously considering another one when I hit upon the idea of a 944. They are really just Golfs with the big greasy bits arranged slightly differently. If you are used to working on Golfs then you will find yourself at home on a 944 remarkably quickly, and being practical will stand you in very good stead. (Have a look at the thread also running on here about caliper rebuild costs for an example of that.)

Belts-wise, the S2 has an arrangement very similar to the 16v Golf engines; cam belt drives the exhaust cam and a chain drives from the exhaust to the inlet cam. The cam belt drives the water pump (on the back face), so there is no dedicated 'water pump belt'. Additionally, there is a balance belt which runs immediately in front of the cam belt, under the same covers. This is an odd-looking thing (toothed on both sides) and it runs very, very loose. It is common practice to change this at the same time as changing the cam belt; it has to come off to get the cam belt off, and if it snaps then it may well bring the cam belt off with it.

Here's a decent piccie of the two main belts:

... and here's a diagram:

Additionally, outside the covers, there are an additional two or three belts; power steering pump, alternator and air-con pump (if you have one.)

Belts are - as you have gathered - things that need to be changed regularly. The chains were never included in a service schedule so there is no 'replacement interval' as such, but it is good to have them looked at every now and then. The risk is not so much that the chain snaps but more than it wears and stretches, and hence causes the cam sprockets to wear, which means the cams also have to be replaced (which is expensive.)

There are lots of bits that are common with golfs - generally the early 944's ('square dash') share with the Mk1 golf and the later 944's ('oval dash') share with the Mk2. Keep your eyes open when working on one and you will meet a lot of old familiar faces!

Best of luck with your purchase.


Oli.

 

[willber]

Hi Oli,

Thank you for your reply, the diagrams and pictures are extremely helpful and I understand exactly where they all go now. As you say it is very similar in setup to the 16v Golf engine. I did inspect but did not change the inter cam chain on the Golf as it was OK.

I have heard people describe the 944 as a grown up Golf before also. It seems to have a similar characteristic in having the 16v 4 pot so I will probably feel quite at home in one too.

My Golf had a 2.0 ABF engine with a close ratio gearbox and a Quaife diff. It was very quick and extremely capable but was a bit too harsh for the road. I found myself not really going on track so would like to have something that can do both, and try not to get too carried away with modifications, out of cost and time spent off road. I am more interested in making sure it is in good mechanical order and doing preventative/improving maintainence this time round. The cars are beautifully engineered and I can get enjoyment from just tinkering with bits here and there.

Hopefully I will be in an S2 soon and will be able to come along to some meetings etc and absorb more info from these forums.

Thanks to all so far.

Cheers

Will

 

[zcacogp]

Will,

The cam chain setup is just about identical to that on the 16v four-pot Golfs, with two exceptions; the chain is at the front of the engine on the Golf but between cylinders 2 and 3 on the S2 engine, and the chain has a hydraulically-powered tensioner on the S2 engine, with a 'slipper' at the top and bottom (both of which wear and need to be changed from time to time.) I never heard of the chain giving any problems at all on the Golf engines but it's something to watch on the S2 engines.

The 944 is in many ways very similar to the Golf, but you will notice the greater elegance of the engineering everywhere; suspension parts are pressed steel on the Golf but cast aluminium alloy on the 944, for example, and the braking systems on the S2's make those on any Golf look like they belong on a toy car. Everything is very VW, but all done to a much higher standard (and you can see why there was such a difference in price when they were new.) The driving experience is quite different tho'; 944's have dull engines, but are superb to drive in every other respect. You sit in them, not on them (as you do with Golfs), and after having driven it no more than 100 yards you realise where Porsche spent their design and development budgets; it all went on the chassis, which is simply superb. I thought Golfs were great when I had mine, but having driven a couple since buying my S2 I realise I could never, ever go back.


Oli.