964 RS price help

[hgo]

Hello all, first of all, a happy New Year to you all

I have a question about 964 Rs pricing.
I found a white one for sale, but...
according to the owner, who has bought the car in Germany about 10 years ago from the first owner.
this first owner bought his RS but wanted a NGT (Clubsport)car afterwards, but none where available anymore. So the original carpet Rs was send back to the facory and was rebuild to cup spec, so fully welded cage, different clutch, Cup suspension (original RS parts came back with the car).
problem, no paperwork anymore to proof this, but all welding+cage looks genuine
since i drive mostly on circuits with my Rs now (Belgian nightblue one in Clastres) i was looking for something more extreme, so this one came in the picture.
but after checking everything out, the engine is a normal 964C2 block because of an engine failure in the past. C2 engine was completely rebuild to RS spec and still usable Rs components(by a known reputable company), a lot of money went into the engine, but no RS engine number anymore.
the owner wants an offer for the car, he does not want to say a price on the car, because of the "wrong" engine.
what is a reasonable offer for a car like this? any ideas on this
the car is absolutely not mint, but a very well used trackday car, but every special Rs part (wheels, alu bonnet,seats ,...) is still there.
any ideas???
thanks
Hans

 

[davidcross]

Sounds an interesting car but not a 50k car. Probably more like 25

 

[993 C4]

I seem to recall this car being on the market in the UK a few months ago....then disappeared off the radar, presumably un sold as your discovery proves.

I was tempted to have a go at it myself, and at that time a friend went to see it and the general condition / spec concurs with your findings. As for pricing....a difficult one. I would have thought it would now find its level around mid 30's imho, given the lack of paperwork documenting a large proportion of her history and general condition.

Check the sticker under the front bonnet. I think it was removed from the service book if its the same car....which I think it is.

Nick.

 

[davidcross]

ORIGINAL: 993 C4

I seem to recall this car being on the market in the UK a few months ago....then disappeared off the radar, presumably un sold as your discovery proves.

I was tempted to have a go at it myself, and at that time a friend went to see it and the general condition / spec concurs with your findings. As for pricing....a difficult one. I would have thought it would now find its level around mid 30's imho, given the lack of paperwork documenting a large proportion of her history and general condition.

Check the sticker under the front bonnet. I think it was removed from the service book if its the same car....which I think it is.

Nick.

There was the one at Michael caines summer last year you may be thinking of nick that had part history and some connection with HK. That didn't sell after investigations. Then there was one in red in Essex that had a standard c2 engine after getting the numbers checked

 

[993 C4]

You're right David.....the one I was thinking it was, was the Michael Caine car. I could'nt remember his name at the time !!

 

[davidcross]

ORIGINAL: 993 C4

You're right David.....the one I was thinking it was, was the Michael Caine car. I could'nt remember his name at the time !!

Funny enough I was just watching the 964rs trip to Clastres on YouTube. The cars sound great.
The White one in the clip is stunning

PS the Michael Caine car looked the part

PPS here it is. http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=60365&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=&sid=8f83a5cfd21ceda558ba38ffdc6402ee

 

[ChrisW]

There are too many questions ...

The shell number should be visible in the rear window, maybe this will hold some clues ... but more concerningly, why would anybpdy spend a fortune fettling a 964 engine into an RS engine, when if only for provenance the RS engine should be repairable ?

 

[h_____]

In terms of pricing, you need to start with what if it was an RS chassis at all (but a replica), then add on the fact it was some decent parts and is (assumably) and RS chassis, and then it drops it between a good replica and full original RS. then factor in condition.

thats how I would go about it, but its not my money.

As others have said, be good establish some of the history and then work out a price. Otherwise err on the cautious side.

 

[ChrisW]

I agree Hugh ..

 

[Hacki]

+1

 

[carreraboy]

ORIGINAL: 993 C4

You're right David.....the one I was thinking it was, was the Michael Caine car. I could'nt remember his name at the time !!

Tell me about it, I even walked eventually .... don't think its the same car though ... need pictures chassis number .... [&:]

 

[chfs911]

Allez vite! Run!

 

[davidcross]

ORIGINAL: carreraboy

ORIGINAL: 993 C4

You're right David.....the one I was thinking it was, was the Michael Caine car. I could'nt remember his name at the time !!

Tell me about it, I even walked eventually .... don't think its the same car though ... need pictures chassis number .... [&:]

What was the deciding factor that made u walk from the Caine car Des???
I'm remember your post stewing over it.....

 

[carreraboy]

I believe it sold to a friend of the then owner, MC was selling on behalf of a customer. It had a late Clubspor N-GT Chassis number, with the story it was delivered new to Hong Kong, but an early shell number, although it was totally lightweight M002 Spec. I first knew the car when it came in via Oakfields and sold to MCP for £18k, when they were making mid to late 20's .... I put a hell of a lot of time into the research even paid a deposit .... but was just one straw too many in the end .... might well be a genuine misfit chassis numbered car ... I had to mpoint out the Chassis number to both MCP and MC, all who I would say are honourable straight dealers, probably not aware of the chassis number significance ..... been in the UK for over ten years so not the above car, oh and it got the usual slating on other forums ... so I walked, maybe one day someone will get hold of the car and really get to the bottom of it. But I had a piece of paper from Porsche to say exactly what it was a N-GT Chassis numbered Lightweight .... other paperwork and someones attempt to recreate stickers in the book and bonnet not good, this just totally distracted the car which I believed to be original without that nonsense. Not saying this was done by the dealers, far from it, however a really stupid thing to do. I still think it's a real genuine oddball chassis car, although had a few big repairs .... that chassis number still intrigues me today ... [&:]

 

[oldtimer]

I think the best guide to price is to consider the various 964C2's that have been modified to 'RS spec' , several have appeared on the market in the last 18 months.
There is no scientific formula , building a replica up from the proper bits can prove to be more expensive than going out to buy the real thing , but will never be worth as much as the real thing. Your best strategy is to offer low , say 25k sterlings equivalent in Euro whatever that is today , but set yourself a top figure not to exceed.
If you are not confident then get a friend to do the bartering , the art of the deal will be the key here.......put yourself in Tom Schmitz's shoes []

 

[carreraboy]

ORIGINAL: oldtimer

I think the best guide to price is to consider the various 964C2's that have been modified to 'RS spec' , several have appeared on the market in the last 18 months.
There is no scientific formula , building a replica up from the proper bits can prove to be more expensive than going out to buy the real thing , but will never be worth as much as the real thing. Your best strategy is to offer low , say 25k sterlings equivalent in Euro whatever that is today , but set yourself a top figure not to exceed.
If you are not confident then get a friend to do the bartering , the art of the deal will be the key here.......put yourself in Tom Schmitz's shoes []

Tell him it's the wrong colour, that's a good start and you have 50 in stock already and the market is very bad and you only doing him a favour as the GT3 is really the track wapon, and you will be lucky to find a buyer this side of Christmas and it will cost a fortune to take the cage out and put back as standard, as everybody wants a standard car. Oh and all that panel damage, not original panels! []

 

[davidcross]

ORIGINAL: carreraboy

I believe it sold to a friend of the then owner, MC was selling on behalf of a customer. It had a late Clubspor N-GT Chassis number, with the story it was delivered new to Hong Kong, but an early shell number, although it was totally lightweight M002 Spec. I first knew the car when it came in via Oakfields and sold to MCP for £18k, when they were making mid to late 20's .... I put a hell of a lot of time into the research even paid a deposit .... but was just one straw too many in the end .... might well be a genuine misfit chassis numbered car ... I had to mpoint out the Chassis number to both MCP and MC, all who I would say are honourable straight dealers, probably not aware of the chassis number significance ..... been in the UK for over ten years so not the above car, oh and it got the usual slating on other forums ... so I walked, maybe one day someone will get hold of the car and really get to the bottom of it. But I had a piece of paper from Porsche to say exactly what it was a N-GT Chassis numbered Lightweight .... other paperwork and someones attempt to recreate stickers in the book and bonnet not good, this just totally distracted the car which I believed to be original without that nonsense. Not saying this was done by the dealers, far from it, however a really stupid thing to do. I still think it's a real genuine oddball chassis car, although had a few big repairs .... that chassis number still intrigues me today ... [&:]

.
Ok DES got you. We're going a bit off topic here but I believe I got to see the car just before you. It didn't work out in the end for me but sure was a good looking car. One thing I do distinctly remember though was the split in the bodywork under the lip of the engine lid just by the sticker. As you say, would maybe be a good research piece for someone however.
All the best

 

[964rsdatabase]

Hans, YHM.

 

[hgo]

thanks for all the answers.
this is a difficult one.

chassis number is 547, picture has shell number, any ideas on the match?

thanks
Hans

 

[964rsdatabase]

Just checked and it fits in perfectly. Should be a C20 Dutch car.

Hope this helps.