944S Race car - what can be done

[rsmithinfo]

Hello gents,

Myself and my business partner have the race car below which is a 944S (not an S2) which we bought stock and now it's a race car with all the plumbing, cage, seat&harness and so on. We're getting it power tested to know what its putting out next week (hoping for stock 190bhp but we shall see)

The question is this - we want more power generally, and also want to improve the car. What would you do next? We have had a fair bit of driver training - we know that's a huge factor, this question is about the car.

Really love to know thoughts of the forum.

Spec is:
- 944S 2.5
- Performance flat panel air filter
- Promax Chip
- Gaz gold suspension supplied by EMC
- Carbon Lorraine pads

PS - image is from David Stallard have bought images off him before and will be buying these, this is just for the latest pic of the car

 

[944 man]

There isnt a lot that you can do, without an epic budget and a massive committment... A known-good S2 engine is propbably going to be your best bet.

 

[rsmithinfo]

Not even a few simple things? A few things I thought about:

- Straight through exhaust (having trouble finding one though suggestions welcome)
- Proper induction kit (cone jobber)
- Thicker ARBs (m303s?)
- Throttle bodies?
- ECU tuning?

Not necessarily talking about adding 70bhp but little gains would be good

 

[Neil Haughey]

Following on from Simon the best ppl to talk to are EMC again. They built a lovely looking green S which Ben Eacock raced a few times in CSCC. The same car morphed into an S2 and continues to be raced in CSCC.

I wouldn't feel to bad about the advice to morph the car into an S2 you already have the difficult bit done in building up a car, the cage and body shell prep etc. Putting in a different engine, brakes, wishbones etc. is all pretty easy stuff, and the sort of work the car will undoubtedly end up going through at some point anyway. S gearbox also better than an S2 box anyway as you have the shorter 5th.

 

[DavidL]

I looked at this when I had my S - not for track work mind.
There isn't a lot to do for the engine. Promax do a chip or yes a new ECU and a live mapping session but it seems to improve torque a little and maybe the rev range over whihc its spread but does little for the outright power.
Exhaust - maybe. No idea how restrictive or otherwise the stock system is.

Realistically its going to be slight.
Good suspension and driver training to exploit what you have is a better bet.
Or start changing engines.

I sold my S (actually for sale again on 911uk) and bought a turbo

 

[wemorgan]

Is there any further weight to be saved? Poly-car windows, glass-fibre panel etc.

 

[944 man]

Replace the inlet tract, the engine management and peripherals and the cams and youll be able to see real gains. The heads are lovely but Porsches engineers hobbled the engine good and proper, as they did the the 8v before it.

 

[Diver944]

Most people on the forum that have had an S tested on a reputable Dyno have found them to be down around 20bhp on the factory figures. Theories are that the smaller capacity and high revs needed on this 16v engine wear down the valve guides much more than the larger engined 3L S2. A simple top end rebuild could get you back up to the factory figures but the cost puts people off.

Cheap mods like chips, filters, exhaust will gain you circa 5 bhp at most [&o]

 

[Cater_Racer]

Hi Rob, not sure you can play with induction much in Deutsche Marque, check the regs outM Gerry

 

[rsmithinfo]

Really appreciate the replies guys.

Will check the regs Gerry I think it's mainly forced induction they don't like (well it changes your class anyway)

Car was dyno'd today and the graphs are below - 186bhp and 161 lb/ft. As it should be 190 stock this isn;t far off considering its age I wouldn't think (even with promax chip).

Weight wise I think a few tiny things but then next would be bonnet, wings, rear screen (all not cheap but could be good and maintain silhouette which is regs). Want to get it on a weight bridge though to know what it weighs.

S2 engine feels like a possibility and I will call EMC. I know the green car - looks awesome goes well in our series. What do people feel cost wise for a swap? 1k for the engine 2k labour?

 

[944 man]

Weight makes a massive difference. More BHP is nice, but it only helps to drap your weight around more quickly, whereas reduced weight makes the car quicker, it makes it stop far shorter and cornering benefits too.

I made an otherwise mechanically standard series one 944 go much, much quicker and stop better too, simply by lightening it.

A bonnet will cost £150 and wings £90 each. Wings arent heavy at all, but the sealer on them makes a massive difference! Id remove the window regulators, the sunroof motor and the electric hatch release, if theyre still fitted and you can make polycarbonate drop and side glasses from a pattern (they dont need thermo-forming).

A polycarbonate rear hatch is diffifult to make yourself, but the weight saving is substantial - you can end up with a very light rear end though, which caught me out at Bruntingthorpe...


Simon

 

[rsmithinfo]

ORIGINAL: 944 man
remove the window regulators, the sunroof motor and the electric hatch release

They are gone

ORIGINAL: 944 man
A bonnet will cost £150 and wings £90 each.
A polycarbonate rear hatch is diffifult to make yourself, but the weight saving is substantial

Yes I had that thought about the rear end, esp. need the bonnet lighter if did that. Windows are done, but not 3/4s

Found this if anyone knows them:

Rear screen plastic

 

[Neil Haughey]

That green S2 is very light as well, ISTR something like 1050 or 1080Kg.

Engine swap is pretty easy in these cars no way would it cost that much if you have all the needed bits, as an example they (EMC) swapped out the rubber cush drive in our 968 tiptronic by removing the engine as it was easier. The whole job was under a grand including the replacement part.

 

[944 man]

I nearly bought a full set from P4P, but they nearly doubled the price in the few months between my receiving their email and coming to order... I made my own and bought a used (off Buttercups hillclimber, later Lali Atwals car) polycarbonate hatch.

Thats a keen price Neil, considering that the cush drives list price is almost £1,100!

 

[Neil Haughey]

It came out of an ultra low mileage tiptronic that was broken for parts, total cost was 800 quid inc vat, something like 500 of which was labour which gives an idea on how much an engine swap should cost if one has all the required bits. S2 engines are plentiful as well to the point that there really is no point in any having any other NA 944 track car than one with an S2 engine in it.

 

[Hilux]

Weight saving (obviously) or go on a diet if you are carrying a bit []

If you havent then go to a higher spec brake fluid and then probably bigger brakes would be first on my list although IIRC your brakes are on 968`s, you can achieve higher entry speeds for longer with confidence that the brakes wont go off.

 

[rsmithinfo]

S2 engine - interesting good that it would be less. Do you need engine, ECU and loom? Or more bits?

Brakes - Carbon Lorraine pads (seem to be wearing well but will prob take out the discs soon enough) on standard 944S setup but with racing blue fluid. They don't seem to be going off during races, although maybe need to push harder!

I'll give EMC a call next week. Next race in Anglesey end of the month and test day just before, not sure an engine will get in for then!

Weight - yes I could lose a stone or two. My co driver is 2 stone lighter! Car's weight, need to look into that one see if there is anymore to be done.

 

[Neil Haughey]

If you can find it there is a thread on here in which I compiled the weight of all the bits from my S2 when we stripped it down. The doors are the big shocker and would be one of the things I would/might attack on my own car. ISTR a complete door is 27Kg and contrary to popular myth the difference between electric and manual wind is not remotely worth bothering with. On a pure race car I would look at completely gutting the passenger door down to just the outer frame/skin, fixed window and a plastic CF effect panel to cover the inside face.

 

[peanut2]

ORIGINAL: wemorgan

Is there any further weight to be saved? Poly-car windows, glass-fibre panel etc.

I agree with Will, Neil and Simon .Weight saving is the cheapest and easiest way to make any car go faster and is often overlooked because engine tuning and mods are more appealing.

The next thing I would look at is reducing drag especially under the car. The 944 has a pretty miserable cd value compared to a modern saloon car . Huge gains could be had in straightline speed by reducing drag and turbulance

next I would look at chassis tuning and brakes

if you can brake later into the bends than an identically powered car then you will win the race ! simple as that. You could potentially gain more speed (or quicker lap times) by improving the braking than any other mod you could do to the engine or chassis .

Chassis...... well I guess you need to do some research on fine tuning your steering and chassis to suit the particular track of each race you are entering .

Lastly I would look at engine tuning because it is the most expensive and potentially gives the smallest bang for buck.

When and where are you hoping to enter your first race Rob ?

 

[rsmithinfo]

ORIGINAL: peanut2


When and where are you hoping to enter your first race Rob ?

Done two races now - Brands Hatch Indy and Silverstone National. There weren't any standard 944s around but there were some 2 litre 924s I would of expected to keep up with?

How can you reduce drag on a 944?

I'm happy to look at all of this of course, weight, s2 engine and brakes