Yellowstuff pads or disc failure after track day?

[pterri]

I found exactly this! Very poor performance, i could hardly get the wheels locked which shows a lack of braking force, that was right at the start of the day so doubt it was the brake fluid boiling. It's my first porsche so thought it was because i wasnt shoving hard enough! I'm told that porsche don't overservo their brakes. i replaced with standard pads and found them much better on the road and far better when i tracked them a few weeks later, i could get the brakes to activate the ABS so there was enough braking force there. I used yellow stuff on my old MR2 and they were fine, perhaps the cayman is too heavy? I'll not use them again, may be fine pads but didn't work for me. I may try Brembo Sport pads next time (HP2000), supposed to be OEM approved but slightly better for fade and higher temps.

my pads looked like yours, worse if anything. Seemed to have crumbled?

 

[ralphmusic]

I ran Pagid RS29 Yellows on a 997 GTS that I tracked. They were very good at braking that 1650kg car with 330mm front discs and they lasted well but disc wear was heavy - I got through 3 sets of fronts in a year (12 track days).

My point being that it is always a trade off between pad and disk wear. I have fitted larger 911 6 pot calipers and 340mm discs with OEM pads and Castrol SRF brake fluid which works well for me. The pedal feel is a touch soft but never varies and I can over brake getting ABS to cut in (I prefer to stay just below the threshold). I get maybe 5k miles and 6/7 track days from the pads and double that for the discs. I replace pads after 50% wear and clean out the discs' holes after each track day to delay the onset of cracking.

 

[Contraband]

I have been singing the praises of my Yellowstuff pads since I fitted them.
The stopping power, even from cold, was outstanding..... was!
The first few sessions at Knockhill were fine. I then started to experience brake fade. I thought my fluid was getting too hot and causing the fade, but I could smell the brakes.
When the brakes are now cool the braking is extremely poor compared to how they were before the track day, I would say dangerously poor.
I contacted ECB about their pads and they say Yellowstuff is fine for track days and can see nothing wrong with the pads or disc in the photo I sent them. I was only looking for advice and they gave the impression they were not really interested.
As you can see, the disc is now grooved and has different colours on it as does the pad. Both were as new before the track day.
My question is this. Have my discs let me down or my pads?
I have ordered new discs but I'm looking for suggestions on a fast road/track pad.

Archie

 

[MrDemon]

DS1.11 or RS29's or if you feel like spending ££ endless.

SRF and GT3 brake ducts also, and don't forget PSM off.

 

[Contraband]

Does PSM cut power or apply brakes?

 

[Andyturbo22]

@contraband would you say that you warmed you brakes up by building up gradually over a few laps?

brakes have been my nemesis for years when it comes to track days. in my opinion fast road and track day pads and discs are never the same thing.

From what I can see from your pic the pads and discs looked to have gone off with excess heat, what happens then is they glaze, the glaze is really hard to clear, and that will be why even now on the road they are poor. I have had the same in the past.

Yeah sure your style of driving, the weight of your car and the speed you prepare for a corner just before turn in have a huge bearing. In my 17 years of track daying I have seen all kinds of high performance cars fry their brakes. It is not fast road it is track racing, it does not compare when you really get going.

If you want 100% braking efficiency on track then you need to look for the right upgrades as a package, one part alone will not deliver full satisfaction.

on a track weapon in the past I went full in with braided hoses, DOT 5+ fluid, diamond cut multi grooved discs and brembo pads. Whilst also ensuring all air cooling to the brakes was spot on. This was not a cheap solution but it was immense. last year I did back to back track days at Oulton Park and Anglesey, over 120 track miles on each day and all with absolutely no fade and no drama. All in with the brake upgrades was the way forward.

The only other car at both track days that I would say out broke me all day was my mates GT3 with PCCB. The braking from the PCCB's was amazing. To be blunt at the cost option PCCB will set you back it should be.

i have since got a Cayman with PCCB and it is sublime on track and the braking is amazing.

obviously PCCB as an after market fit is unlikely I get that.

So I would say either live with frying the brakes on the occasion you do take your car on track or my advice useful or not is if you intend to do more track days then go full in with the upgrades.

Cheers

 

[Motorhead]

Does PSM cut power or apply brakes?

Both. Here's some info:

https://www.total911.com/technology-explained-porsche-stability-management/

Jeff

 

[Contraband]

Andyturbo22, thanks, great info.. the car is always suitably warmed before full attack!

Jeff, I didn't realise the psm was as sophisticated and came back on if the abs kicked in. Cheers.

I've just been pricing RS29's... £220!

Archie

 

[tscaptain]

I have RS29s on the turbo and love them ( apart from the occasional squealy moments!). Well worth the extra cash. However, RS14s have been recommended so will try them next pad change. After a poor experience with EBC on a different marque some years back I wouldn't put them on any car of mine.

 

[MrDemon]

cooling is key here not pad

the disk are too small, the pads are too small, the cooling is poor, a better pad will allow more heat, but it's a bad net effect as every thing will run even hotter !

PCCB are not really a track solution at £20k a set lol they also hate heat and fall apart !

for 4 or 5 laps runs a RS29 pads will work, for longer runs you need a disk/cooling,fluid upgrade circa £2k

to do it right you need a BBK at about £4k but that would outbrake a PCCB car. PCCB are over rated , the GT4 race cars uses smaller iron disks and do 40 laps ! just better all round parts.

PCCB disc can run very hot but the pads cannot !!! and I have seen many a 991 turbo and even 991 RS with smoking brakes, again net effect of a hot pad that this level is boiled fluid !!!

So while people can stay out longer with PCCB the heat is A: killing the disc and B: over heating the pad.

 

[legin]

I have been singing the praises of my Yellowstuff pads since I fitted them.

The stopping power, even from cold, was outstanding..... was!

The first few sessions at Knockhill were fine. I then started to experience brake fade. I thought my fluid was getting too hot and causing the fade, but I could smell the brakes.

When the brakes are now cool the braking is extremely poor compared to how they were before the track day, I would say dangerously poor.

I contacted ECB about their pads and they say Yellowstuff is fine for track days and can see nothing wrong with the pads or disc in the photo I sent them. I was only looking for advice and they gave the impression they were not really interested.

As you can see, the disc is now grooved and has different colours on it as does the pad. Both were as new before the track day.

My question is this. Have my discs let me down or my pads?

I have ordered new discs but I'm looking for suggestions on a fast road/track pad.

Archie

[/quote

Its the pads. EBC really are junk doesnt matter what colour. I have tried yellow , red and green and exactly same experience they started off great and went terminally bad. The green are just bad from the start though. Change brand I tended to like pagid orange on the Ferrari for track. I would endorse the RS 29 mentioned above as they always worked for me, the RS14 have a mixed reception and sometimes struggle with bedding to the disc resulting in judder depending whom you ask.

 

[Ian964]

Those basically look like they've overheated. I've managed to do the same thing on my CR, even with Pagid RS14s. My plan is to fit bigger discs (so more area for cooling).

 

[Steve Brookes]

You get what you pay for. EBC yellow stuff are cheap compared to some of the other pads mentioned in this thread. While yellow stuff are marketed as track pads, a heavy car like a Cayman soon exposes them as being no such thing. Brembo HP2000 are marketed as occasional track...I found them pretty good but they had poor bite when cold and were 70% worn after only two trackdays. So for me it's now only Pagid RS29s for trackdays. They are twice the price but will last three times as long and more importantly work better than any of the others when on track.

 

[Contraband]

Thanks Steve... I'm coming to that conclusion.

RS29's and some extra air if possible.

 

[PAG ZERO1]

Hi Guy's, excellent read and the write up on PSM that Jeff attached, can you tell me if you can fit R29's to standard New Porsche discs ?

regards

Pete

 

[Steve Brookes]

Pete, yes you can use standard discs or the equivalent Sebro OEM disc which are about half the price.

 

[ralphmusic]

Pete, yes you can use standard discs or the equivalent Sebro OEM disc which are about half the price.

Steve,

Do you find disc wear is more with the Pagid pads? It may be my experience of heavy disc wear with a Carerra GTS was due to its front discs at 330mm being too small for a 1650kg car driven briskly.

Ralph

 

[MrDemon]

Disks are so cheap who cares about a bit more wear, what are they £65 a disc on a Cayman.

the next best is the 340MM gyro set up but that's a £2k solution, but if I were into track days with a 987 I would be having those without question.

Gyro 340mm, RS29 or DS1.11, SRF with GT3 ducts and PSM off, re-bleed before every track outing.

 

[Steve Brookes]

Ralph,

Yes, definitely more wear with the RS29s. My discs and RS29s were all new. Together I think they have done about 8 track days. The pads are now all about 3 mm left and are ready for the bin IMO. Although the discs are still in spec (they were measured last week at an OPC service) I'll change them when I get a new set of RS29s. At about £160 per axle for the sebro discs they're significantly less than a set of RS29s for the axle.

 

[John Sims]

You get what you pay for. EBC yellow stuff are cheap compared to some of the other pads mentioned in this thread. While yellow stuff are marketed as track pads, a heavy car like a Cayman soon exposes them as being no such thing....

I agree. I would go as far as to say they aren't suitable for road use as they have little or no bite when cold. I would have to warm mine with some gentle application when approaching a roundabout, after a long dual carriageway, as otherwise you would have very little braking when you applied them at the roundabout. The preheating meant they were then fine when called upon but not really the sort of thing you want on a road.

I'll admit I had terrible problems with brakes on track days, probably due to bad habits learnt racing a Lotus 7 derivative. I boiled every fluid I could find in two Porsches until I used Castrol Gold. The Yellow Stuff are fine on the track, probably because they like being hot, but otherwise they are a liability.