993 1996 C2 starter issue
- Thread starter 993C2EX
- Start date
Often the earth in situations like that. Check the reading of your battery with a multimeter, one lead connected to the positive, the other connected to a solid part of the body/chassis (not covered by paint). Obviously it should the similar to the reading if the lead was connected to the negative on the battery (at least 12.5v).
les richards
New member
I had a similar problem and exactly the same symptoms in 2019 on my C2, just a clicking from the engine bay. The Indie who has serviced the car for the last 12-odd years said it was probably the solenoid. Fair enough, it was likely to be the original starter motor.
At the next service he fitted a new Bosch motor - apparently there were three types it could have been, so beware if sourcing one yourself! - at just over £300. He graciously let me have it for the trade price but charged for the fitting, obviously. All seemed well but now some 22-months and fewer than 2,000 miles I have the same problem. A week or two ago it clicked probably 8, 9 or 10 times before firing up but later started on the button while the engine was still warm. In light of the starting problem I took the car that day to the Indie ahead of an upcoming service next month. He said clicking at the back is normally solenoid; no noise from the back or something from the dash is the switch contacts probably dirty from arcing. Seems fitting a new switch - actually the bit with the contacts in (964 613 012 00) rather than the mechanism - is a real pain.
His prognosis this time was again solenoid although, as I said earlier, it started when warm in his presence. I'm a little dubious of thinking it's a motor fault given the part was new and the limited use it's had since fitting, although 'new' parts can still be faulty. I'm even more annoyed at ECP/CarParts4Less for seemingly ignoring my requests for details on the warranty, but now believe it to be only 12-months.
I've read over the years of main earth problems with 911s. I did fit an additional earth strap at the battery first time round but could not say it made any noticeable difference, but I'm now thinking along main earth strap issues and have been experimenting with another strap from the gearbox to the chassis. When I tried it a few days ago it clicked once then fired up, which was promising but haven't had the opportunity to try it again since.
Would have liked to have cleaned up the connection at the chassis on the original strap but getting to it - I have no hoist or other means - looks to be really difficult.
Reluctant to have yet another new expensive starter fitted if I'm only going to get a limited use from it.
I share your pain, I really do; I have a car I should look forward to driving but don't in case I have to stop somewhere and then cannot start it again, especially not good in a Porsche.
If the extra earth strap makes a difference I'll look to fit something permanent rather than the lash-up at the moment and report back. If you manage a fix, please do let me and the wider community know.
Apologies for the ramble but hope there is something of interest for you.
Should you wish to communicate off-Forum my email is les_b_richards@yahoo.co.uk
Cheers
At the next service he fitted a new Bosch motor - apparently there were three types it could have been, so beware if sourcing one yourself! - at just over £300. He graciously let me have it for the trade price but charged for the fitting, obviously. All seemed well but now some 22-months and fewer than 2,000 miles I have the same problem. A week or two ago it clicked probably 8, 9 or 10 times before firing up but later started on the button while the engine was still warm. In light of the starting problem I took the car that day to the Indie ahead of an upcoming service next month. He said clicking at the back is normally solenoid; no noise from the back or something from the dash is the switch contacts probably dirty from arcing. Seems fitting a new switch - actually the bit with the contacts in (964 613 012 00) rather than the mechanism - is a real pain.
His prognosis this time was again solenoid although, as I said earlier, it started when warm in his presence. I'm a little dubious of thinking it's a motor fault given the part was new and the limited use it's had since fitting, although 'new' parts can still be faulty. I'm even more annoyed at ECP/CarParts4Less for seemingly ignoring my requests for details on the warranty, but now believe it to be only 12-months.
I've read over the years of main earth problems with 911s. I did fit an additional earth strap at the battery first time round but could not say it made any noticeable difference, but I'm now thinking along main earth strap issues and have been experimenting with another strap from the gearbox to the chassis. When I tried it a few days ago it clicked once then fired up, which was promising but haven't had the opportunity to try it again since.
Would have liked to have cleaned up the connection at the chassis on the original strap but getting to it - I have no hoist or other means - looks to be really difficult.
Reluctant to have yet another new expensive starter fitted if I'm only going to get a limited use from it.
I share your pain, I really do; I have a car I should look forward to driving but don't in case I have to stop somewhere and then cannot start it again, especially not good in a Porsche.
If the extra earth strap makes a difference I'll look to fit something permanent rather than the lash-up at the moment and report back. If you manage a fix, please do let me and the wider community know.
Apologies for the ramble but hope there is something of interest for you.
Should you wish to communicate off-Forum my email is les_b_richards@yahoo.co.uk
Cheers
Les,
thanks for your detailEd reply. I don’t consider that a ramble as the more information you give the more I can think about and eliminate.
Mine has the problem when hot or cold. I fitted a trickle charger a couple years ago as I thought that the battery was being drained and that was the issue. I since discovered that the tracker was what was draining the battery and have now disconnected that from the info plug.
done two really good runs in it recently and so all should be well with the charge but in any event I’ve put the trickle charger back on just in case.
Still having had the trickle charge on I had the same thing this morning. Drove to the petrol station and with the car hot same problem.
I don’t get the click though so I don’t think it’s the solenoid and so not the starter as every time it does click it starts first time.
as a process of elimination from yours and other replies I’m thinking its the keyswitch or maybe a relay.
Im confident it’s not the earth, confident it’s not the solenoid / starter and now thinks it’s between these two points and so am definitely thinking keyswitch or relay.
I will update this thread when I know more and hopefully resolve it.
thanks again
thanks for your detailEd reply. I don’t consider that a ramble as the more information you give the more I can think about and eliminate.
Mine has the problem when hot or cold. I fitted a trickle charger a couple years ago as I thought that the battery was being drained and that was the issue. I since discovered that the tracker was what was draining the battery and have now disconnected that from the info plug.
done two really good runs in it recently and so all should be well with the charge but in any event I’ve put the trickle charger back on just in case.
Still having had the trickle charge on I had the same thing this morning. Drove to the petrol station and with the car hot same problem.
I don’t get the click though so I don’t think it’s the solenoid and so not the starter as every time it does click it starts first time.
as a process of elimination from yours and other replies I’m thinking its the keyswitch or maybe a relay.
Im confident it’s not the earth, confident it’s not the solenoid / starter and now thinks it’s between these two points and so am definitely thinking keyswitch or relay.
I will update this thread when I know more and hopefully resolve it.
thanks again
les richards
New member
Hi Geoff, had a new Bosch battery in 2018 and have a voltmeter in the car which shows all the right readings but dips down with the clicks. The starter pulls a heavy current so that's no surprise. Also have a battery monitor across the terminals linked to an app on the phone that gives real time measurements during starting. Again nothing really untoward there, assuming that the device is accurate. The monitor was mentioned on the, dare I say on here, 911.UK forum.
Been using a trickle charger since 2000 when I got my 944 and wouldn't be without one; battery voltage seems fine on mine when at rest.
I've also had a solid state DME relay from Focus 9 Technology in the US fitted since 2017 and it's been a fit-and-forget item and not given cause for concern. The DME relay is another regular source of starting problems - I'm surprised Porsche didn't upgrade the design as it was always a culprit with the 944 and derivatives - but then again, Porsche also sell replacements, at a cost, and business is business...
I think with a faulty relay the car will turn over but the fuel pump is out of action. Since you are a 'clicker' perhaps it's not the DME as it doesn't turn over? Have you tried another known good, working relay for peace of mind?
I understand that the biggest problem with the switch (apart from the price) is that access is severely restricted due to the closeness to the dash surround but I've not looked at that yet but may have to if the earth strap mod doesn't do the trick. 'Er indoors had this same problem on a Metro, very embarrassing (a Metro[
]!) and potentially dangerous if the car stalled and wouldn't start. I got the switch off the car and took it apart; the two big contacts inside were black with arcing and only the tiniest areas making contact, if you were lucky. I cleaned both, reassembled and she never had the problem again. Just a thought if you go that route and the switch can be dismantled.
Please let me know how you get on and I'll do the same.
Regards and good luck.
Been using a trickle charger since 2000 when I got my 944 and wouldn't be without one; battery voltage seems fine on mine when at rest.
I've also had a solid state DME relay from Focus 9 Technology in the US fitted since 2017 and it's been a fit-and-forget item and not given cause for concern. The DME relay is another regular source of starting problems - I'm surprised Porsche didn't upgrade the design as it was always a culprit with the 944 and derivatives - but then again, Porsche also sell replacements, at a cost, and business is business...
I think with a faulty relay the car will turn over but the fuel pump is out of action. Since you are a 'clicker' perhaps it's not the DME as it doesn't turn over? Have you tried another known good, working relay for peace of mind?
I understand that the biggest problem with the switch (apart from the price) is that access is severely restricted due to the closeness to the dash surround but I've not looked at that yet but may have to if the earth strap mod doesn't do the trick. 'Er indoors had this same problem on a Metro, very embarrassing (a Metro[
]!) and potentially dangerous if the car stalled and wouldn't start. I got the switch off the car and took it apart; the two big contacts inside were black with arcing and only the tiniest areas making contact, if you were lucky. I cleaned both, reassembled and she never had the problem again. Just a thought if you go that route and the switch can be dismantled.Please let me know how you get on and I'll do the same.
Regards and good luck.
les richards
New member
Hi Geoff - we exchanged posts last year about non-starting 993s. Did you ever resolve the problem with your car?
A year on and I'm back where I started having thought it was cured - a clicking starter! It let me down after refuelling last year and I had to push the car off the forecourt. Since then, and with various lockdowns, I've been reluctant to use it and was in the habit of running the car for a while periodically in my garage but now it doesn't want to know. Had the (replaced under warranty) battery from ECP last year checked this afternoon and it was declared to be OK. The indie berated me for not using the car enough as he says it's a sure way of knackering the battery but I see no fun in getting stuck somewhere unable to start it.
I'm really at a loss to know what to do next. Been looking at the cost of new ignition switches but, as we said last time, a real so-and-so to fit apparently. Do they really give trouble, I wonder?
How did you get on?
Cheers
A year on and I'm back where I started having thought it was cured - a clicking starter! It let me down after refuelling last year and I had to push the car off the forecourt. Since then, and with various lockdowns, I've been reluctant to use it and was in the habit of running the car for a while periodically in my garage but now it doesn't want to know. Had the (replaced under warranty) battery from ECP last year checked this afternoon and it was declared to be OK. The indie berated me for not using the car enough as he says it's a sure way of knackering the battery but I see no fun in getting stuck somewhere unable to start it.
I'm really at a loss to know what to do next. Been looking at the cost of new ignition switches but, as we said last time, a real so-and-so to fit apparently. Do they really give trouble, I wonder?
How did you get on?
Cheers
Hi Les,
I’m sorry to hear that you are still having problem. it’s no fun is it.
Fortunately I have been "ok” through this year but I will share some thoughts that might help you.
Whenever I’m the garage I keep my car on the KTequ(?) trickle charger.
I make a point of specifically switching off the radio, not just leaving it in standby or just removing the ignition key.
I have done a lot of driving this year and I think that does help.
I have stayed away from home for a few days at a time and although I worry each morning that it will not start, it always has.
from time to time I do get just the click but I turn the key again and it starts.
sometimes this is when it’s hot. It may actually be more often when it’s hot than cold.
I no longer depress the clutch when I start but obviously I take great care to make sure it’s not in gear (apparently there is less drag on the starter motor with the car in neutral rather than the clutch in. I cannot say this for sure but that’s what I do)
my service garage suggests that this is a starter issue and with the hot start problem I am inclined to agree with him but do not feel that I have had enough issues through this year to worry sufficiently to investigate further and certainly not to take a gamble on buying a new starter / solenoid.
conclusions that I have drawn….
if it doesn’t start first time don’t hold the key there, turn it back quickly then try again
use the car more
always keep it on a KTeq trickle charger
always specifically switch off the radio before you turn off the engine so you know for sure it’s off
start the car in neutral with the clutch out
make sure you have a recovery service
I hope in some way this helps but I suppose you need confidence in these things working and then keep doing them. On the other hand you may well have a different issue with a different component but there is really only the keyswitch, main relay, soilinoid and starter motor, an Earth connections, and live connections, and and and… sorry I stated that with the thought that the list was short!
best of luck
I’m sorry to hear that you are still having problem. it’s no fun is it.
Fortunately I have been "ok” through this year but I will share some thoughts that might help you.
Whenever I’m the garage I keep my car on the KTequ(?) trickle charger.
I make a point of specifically switching off the radio, not just leaving it in standby or just removing the ignition key.
I have done a lot of driving this year and I think that does help.
I have stayed away from home for a few days at a time and although I worry each morning that it will not start, it always has.
from time to time I do get just the click but I turn the key again and it starts.
sometimes this is when it’s hot. It may actually be more often when it’s hot than cold.
I no longer depress the clutch when I start but obviously I take great care to make sure it’s not in gear (apparently there is less drag on the starter motor with the car in neutral rather than the clutch in. I cannot say this for sure but that’s what I do)
my service garage suggests that this is a starter issue and with the hot start problem I am inclined to agree with him but do not feel that I have had enough issues through this year to worry sufficiently to investigate further and certainly not to take a gamble on buying a new starter / solenoid.
conclusions that I have drawn….
if it doesn’t start first time don’t hold the key there, turn it back quickly then try again
use the car more
always keep it on a KTeq trickle charger
always specifically switch off the radio before you turn off the engine so you know for sure it’s off
start the car in neutral with the clutch out
make sure you have a recovery service
I hope in some way this helps but I suppose you need confidence in these things working and then keep doing them. On the other hand you may well have a different issue with a different component but there is really only the keyswitch, main relay, soilinoid and starter motor, an Earth connections, and live connections, and and and… sorry I stated that with the thought that the list was short!
best of luck
les richards
New member
Thanks Geoff.
I take on board what you say about the clutch and stuff on start-up. To be fair, the battery tender I've used is, like me, getting on a bit and may well be past its best. Seems I can get a new switch for reasonable money should I decide to have a go at changing it. The main reason the indie gives is chronic under-use which is fair comment given lockdown, bad weather and laziness on my part over the last two years.
I do have breakdown cover with Autoaid and did try calling them out but just got a recorded message and the promise to send a link to my 'phone. To be honest, in that situation the last thing I want to be doing is trawling the 'Net at the roadside - I needed to speak to someone - so they will need to be changed prior to renewal.
In the event I do get it started and using it more I guess, like you hint, I will always be mindful that it might let me down again, which is not a good feeling particularly far from home.
Oh well, onward and upward, as they say, seems I'm in for more hours in the man cave...
Thanks again.
Take care.
I take on board what you say about the clutch and stuff on start-up. To be fair, the battery tender I've used is, like me, getting on a bit and may well be past its best. Seems I can get a new switch for reasonable money should I decide to have a go at changing it. The main reason the indie gives is chronic under-use which is fair comment given lockdown, bad weather and laziness on my part over the last two years.
I do have breakdown cover with Autoaid and did try calling them out but just got a recorded message and the promise to send a link to my 'phone. To be honest, in that situation the last thing I want to be doing is trawling the 'Net at the roadside - I needed to speak to someone - so they will need to be changed prior to renewal.
In the event I do get it started and using it more I guess, like you hint, I will always be mindful that it might let me down again, which is not a good feeling particularly far from home.
Oh well, onward and upward, as they say, seems I'm in for more hours in the man cave...
Thanks again.
Take care.
Jeez Les, still suffering starter issues...?
If you can suffer the presentation this looks like a reasonably easily fitted bit of kit to monitor the battery, thus taking it out of the equation... or not..?
https://youtu.be/S6cTtUDqA5E
If you can suffer the presentation this looks like a reasonably easily fitted bit of kit to monitor the battery, thus taking it out of the equation... or not..?
https://youtu.be/S6cTtUDqA5E
les richards
New member
Thanks for that but I beat you to it - got one in 2020. The 'in' thing on another web site (whisper it, 911.UK) and it worked OK when I remembered to check the app on the 'phone.geedee said:
To be honest, I removed it some time ago in case there was a fault and it was causing some drain on the battery. Don't think that's a problem, more to do with not using the car enough - lockdown and all that.
But appreciate your message.
Les there is no doubt that those sort of devices will require minimal battery "power" to operate them, thus in a lay-up or irregularly used machine they do have potential to drain the battery, just as a small hole in a large water tank will drain it down over TIME.... However I suspect well worth while to reconnect it when carrying out checks.
I suspect the real value of the device is that you can`t be two places at once, and with the device connected and phone to hand, you can check the battery under load which is by far the more important time to check battery voltage/condition.
If the battery shows little or no drop in voltage while the key is turned to the start position then it seems unlikely that the non cranking is down to battery voltage..?
I suspect the real value of the device is that you can`t be two places at once, and with the device connected and phone to hand, you can check the battery under load which is by far the more important time to check battery voltage/condition.
If the battery shows little or no drop in voltage while the key is turned to the start position then it seems unlikely that the non cranking is down to battery voltage..?
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