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Helpful ReplyHot!Winter tyres

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ignatzcatz
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2020/12/15 13:27:12 (permalink)

Winter tyres

Toward the Winter and colder seasons there is always the big push for the fitment of winter tyres. I believe that unless you are living near the Artic circle these tyres are just a big sales con. If you have good treaded tyres and you don't drive like a loony the difference these tyres make is so marginal as to make no difference whatsoever. If I had the misfortune to have to frequently traverse muddy and slippery byways I would fit real knobbly tyres but actually if I had such journeys I wouldn't use the Porsche, I would buy a Land Rover. My comments apply equally to more regular cars, I wouldn't consider fitting them to my 911 but then I wouldn't drive it down muddy pathways, heaven forbid. A good friend did purchase these winter tyres for his Audi A5 cabriolet and apart from being a bit noisier the difference was unnoticeable although the wilds of Guildford isn't the best of comparisons to the outer reaches of North Yorkshire I suppose.
Anyway I'm not buying any.     
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condor
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Re: Winter tyres 2020/12/15 15:57:56 (permalink)
It seems like you've already made your decision.
 
I've got a 2011 Cayenne Turbo with winter rims and tyres. They are Scorpion 'ice and snow' tyres.
 
With 4x4 and winter tyres, no car will defy the laws of physics, but winter tyres are noticeably better on wet roads, and pouring rain. 
 
I have winter tyres on my RS6, which I believe are a Dunlop brand, and again, excellent.
 
I think they are FAR from a big con. 
post edited by condor - 2020/12/15 15:58:57

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gdavison
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Re: Winter tyres 2020/12/15 19:00:44 (permalink)
condor
It seems like you've already made your decision.
 
I've got a 2011 Cayenne Turbo with winter rims and tyres. They are Scorpion 'ice and snow' tyres.
 
With 4x4 and winter tyres, no car will defy the laws of physics, but winter tyres are noticeably better on wet roads, and pouring rain. 
 
I have winter tyres on my RS6, which I believe are a Dunlop brand, and again, excellent.
 
I think they are FAR from a big con. 




I have to agree with Condor .. As I expected issues due to the "quattro" not being a true 4wd system I ran winter tyres on my C6 RS6 and never had any issues getting out of the garage in any weather (including the Jan 2013 snow) and up a 200yd 15degree ish "cul-de-sac" (so no snow clearing by council) up to to the main road, on my last Cayenne S Hybrid (958) I did not bother as we had a number of mild winters here in Hampshire/Berkshire and I hoped its more formal 4WD system would be ok -until we had a fair snow drop in Mar 2018 and could not even get the Cayenne (I admit it was on 21inch tyres) out the garage (RS6 was on 20 inch tyres and was a good few kilos lighter than a Cayenne).  I now have the Gen 3 (Model 9Y0) Cayenne Hybrid (again on 21 inch tyres) . so again monitor the long range weather forecast re snow / bad weather and consider do I get a spare set of rims with "winters" on

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AndrewCS
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Re: Winter tyres 2020/12/15 21:46:28 (permalink)
Not a con ... on ice and snow they significantly improve traction and reduce braking distances, which can affect most places - all depends on one`s perception of risk. Have been using them for the last seventeen years, sometimes all year round without issue - some last as long as Summer tyres 
 
(Muddy / slippery byways are not their design brief) 
 
gdavison ... our Touareg also runs 21" rims and required fresh tyres recently. After consulting the `very long range` forecast I opted for a highly rated `wet` Summer tyre from Nokian. Many Summer tyres have better wet ratings than most Winters. 
 
post edited by AndrewCS - 2020/12/16 08:45:27

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stevehaley
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Re: Winter tyres 2020/12/15 22:10:03 (permalink)
Winter tyres in the uk are a tad iffy. They are designed for temps sub 8 degs and really start working a few degs below that. The old winter tyres were basically tractor tyres designed to churn through snow and worked best in narrow widths. the modern tyres are quite different they are much softer than normal tyres and have slits called sips carved into the tyres designed to grip ice. Abuse them by running the pressure too high or running them in warmer temps and they will quickly degrade. They are also much less effective once the tread drops to 4mm indeed in some countries this is the min tread depth which is sometimes marked in the tyre. I normally do 3-5k in the alps every winter and get 4 years out of a set before they drop to under 5mm but i do very little milage in the uk on them. They do shift standing water much better but on a dry or damp road surface at above 2-3 degs your braking distance can be 25% greater. The following will give you some idea.
https://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2020-Auto-Bild-Winter-Tyre-Test.htm
the current crop of winter tyres are staggeringly capable I haven't used snow chains for more than 10years in the alp and my drive there is a 25-30deg slope up normally covered in snow and or ice And the ski station car parks are often an ice rink. Thee is no way i would drive a heavy suv in those conditions on anything but winter tyres. Tye germans will fine if you get stuck while not using winters and switzerland and austria will deem you at fault in any accident regardless. The garages in switzerland are full of english suvs who think 4 wheel drive is a good substitute.
in the highlands yes but in England unless you are going skiing in the alps then i suspect you would be much better off using all season tyres in the winter.
macporsche
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Re: Winter tyres 2020/12/17 17:45:22 (permalink)
I appreciate that in the wilds of Guildford winter tyres may not make much of a difference
Some areas of the UK do get snow, sleet and frost and as I live in one of these areas I can confirm that snow tyres and all season tyres DO make a difference. sometimes a dramatic difference
So I would advise keeping your ill informed comments to yourself for fear someone takes them seriously
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richardbaldelli
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Re: Winter tyres 2020/12/17 18:03:44 (permalink)
ignatzcatz
 I believe that unless you are living near the Artic circle these tyres are just a big sales con. If you have good treaded tyres and you don't drive like a loony the difference these tyres make is so marginal as to make no difference whatsoever.


Sorry, that's just factually incorrect.
 
I spent 15 years living in Canada, nowhere near the Arctic (the latitude was equivalent to Belgium), and winter tyres were a necessity. Granted winter temperatures were considerably colder than the UK, and snowfall could be substantial, but the ability of winter tires to cope with those conditions is staggering compared to all season or summer tyres.
 
Of all the brands I used over the years, Dunlop were the sportiest (or alternatively least effective in harsh winter conditions), Goodyear were adequate, Pirelli excellent and studded Nokian Hakkapeliittas turned vehicles into mountain goats.
 
You might find this Club evening presentation an education: https://www.porscheclubgb.com/news-and-events/news/2020/october/catch-up-an-evening-with-pirelli 
post edited by richardbaldelli - 2020/12/17 18:05:25
condor
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Re: Winter tyres 2020/12/17 18:31:20 (permalink)
Apart from my earlier post, praising winter tyres, friends of mine drive Subarus & live in Quebec and Ontario Canada. Allegedly some winter tyres are made with the shells of walnuts, aiding in traction.

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Wollemi
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Re: Winter tyres 2020/12/17 19:10:50 (permalink)
Not a con at all. 


Consider that a big heavy SUV relies solely on it tyres to stop, the 4WD is going to be of no help at all, and can actually lead you into a false sense of security in that it‘s better traction disguises how slippery the road surface is. You can get up the hill but can you slow down on the other side?
I had a friend who said he didn’t need winter tyres on his brand new Range Rover because it was 4WD. He wrote it off at less than 20mph on a cold wet greasy road a few weeks later. 



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stevehaley
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Re: Winter tyres 2020/12/17 19:56:51 (permalink)
macporsche
I appreciate that in the wilds of Guildford winter tyres may not make much of a difference
Some areas of the UK do get snow, sleet and frost and as I live in one of these areas I can confirm that snow tyres and all season tyres DO make a difference. sometimes a dramatic difference
So I would advise keeping your ill informed comments to yourself for fear someone takes them seriously
Cayenne and 996

Not sure whose post this is directed at - if it was mine then I am sorry but you misunderstood me. My point was that Winter tyres are possibly overkill in england and the the significant degradation in stopping distance on dry or damp roads may not be worth the increased traction on those rare days  when we do have snow here. Using All-Season tyres in the winter however may be the best bet for our normal winters in that they will cope with snow up to a point especially the Michelin Cross Climate which I have used before and was very impressed with. They will also cope with higher temperatures. Would I use them in summer - no.
 
If you take a look at Auto Bilds test of them you will see they suffer much less than the winters in dry and wet conditions.
https://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2020-Auto-Bild-All-Season-Tyre-Test.htm
 
ie 
Dry Braking
Winters 44.5m
Summers 39m
Mich Crossclimate 39.5
 
Wet Braking
Winters 56m
Summers 47m
Mich Crossclimate 48.5m
 
Snow
Winters 28m
Summer 70m
Mich Crossclimate 29m
 
Where winters really shine is on sheet ice with thick snow on top - something we rarely see here.
Winters will degrade very quickly if used in temperatures >10-15deg which is another downside as our weather can oscilate a lot in March.
Below is my driveway in the alps - it is in this sate for about 50-70% of Jan & Feb which is why I use winters.
Regards
Stephen
 

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GBrowse
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Re: Winter tyres 2020/12/17 20:13:34 (permalink)
We put Michelin CrossClimate+ tyres on our large Mercedes estate earlier this year. I can honestly say that they have felt just as sure-footed during the summer as the previous Goodyear Eagles. If anything they were a bit quieter.
Wollemi
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Re: Winter tyres 2020/12/28 11:54:53 (permalink)
 

 
If you take a look at Auto Bilds test of them you will see they suffer much less than the winters in dry and wet conditions.
https://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2020-Auto-Bild-All-Season-Tyre-Test.htm
 Stephen
 
 
Thank you for sharing the link to the Auto Bild tyre test, which was interesting but I couldn‘t find any details of at what ambient temperature the tyre test was carried out. 
 
That information is critical, as one would expect the performance of the winter tyre to be increasingly poor in warmer conditions, and it’s dry and wet abilities to improve as the temperature drops, and conversely the summer tyre will deteriorate as it is colder. 
For a proper comparison they neede£ to carry out their tests at a range of ambient temperatures. 


my personal experience is that a winter tyre outperforms a (high performance) summer tyre all conditions below 5°, and in wet and damp below 10°. 

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Brian_Innes
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Re: Winter tyres 2020/12/28 19:12:36 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Wollemi 2020/12/28 20:10:18
Living as I do in the Highlands, winter tyres are essential if your journeys include untreated rural roads, many of which are unclassified in my particular location.
My Gen 2 Macan Turbo is currently fitted with Michelin Alpin 5 SUV N0 rated winter tyres. I tested them on fresh snow covered local roads for the first time today. The roads I encountered had up to 10cm fresh lightly compacted snow. The ambient temperature was -5c.
 
The results were excellent. Winter tyres are not all about traction avant. Steering and stopping grip also crucial. In my part of the UK, winter tyres are most certainly not a con. My life, and the safety of my Macan depend on the contact footprint of the Michelin Alpin 5 tyres. Today, both the car and the tyres passed all tests with flying colours.
 
Brian
   

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stevehaley
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Re: Winter tyres 2020/12/28 20:25:07 (permalink)
Brian
i remember all too well the winter highlands weather and would definitely use full winters there.
it is more south of Birmingham say that i am talking about.
I think the dry crossover is circa zero and full wet around 8 at least from the few tests i have seen on the net And personal experience, With damp somewhere in between. 
my point wasnt that winters are a con but cross climates may actually be better compromise for use in winter for those of us south of the highlands as they give an almost equal response in all conditions short of full artic. Our winter climate is highly variable and weeks on end around 10degs are quite common whereas 3+in of snow is quite rare.
i totally agree about traction i always pick my winters on ice and snow breaking. Easy enough to get going if you have 4wd however stopping a 2 tonne suv on a 15deg incline on snow and ice is a different matter.
GGillespie
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Re: Winter tyres 2021/02/06 11:44:33 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Wollemi 2021/02/06 11:47:31
ignatzcatz
Toward the Winter and colder seasons there is always the big push for the fitment of winter tyres. I believe that unless you are living near the Artic circle these tyres are just a big sales con. If you have good treaded tyres and you don't drive like a loony the difference these tyres make is so marginal as to make no difference whatsoever. If I had the misfortune to have to frequently traverse muddy and slippery byways I would fit real knobbly tyres but actually if I had such journeys I wouldn't use the Porsche, I would buy a Land Rover. My comments apply equally to more regular cars, I wouldn't consider fitting them to my 911 but then I wouldn't drive it down muddy pathways, heaven forbid. A good friend did purchase these winter tyres for his Audi A5 cabriolet and apart from being a bit noisier the difference was unnoticeable although the wilds of Guildford isn't the best of comparisons to the outer reaches of North Yorkshire I suppose.
Anyway I'm not buying any.     




Thanks for that well researched & evidenced post... 🤔 
 
There is a huge amount of research that has gone on not only within the tyre industry but also in independent driving bodies, including Porsche themselves on the role of winter tyres.
 
 
I have lived in Scotland, Canada and rural Wales - as well as London - and driven in all seasons in Europe, and confirm that winter tyres have substantial safety benefits not only in snow & ice but also in dry cold conditions.
Yes if you plan off-road driving “knobbly tyres” (presume you mean AT / MT by that) would be the choice depending on the amount of mud, but that is irrelevant to your discussion on winter tyres which are designed for on-road use. I can also confirm that you don’t have to “drive like a loony” to benefit from winter tyres - have seen and experienced first hand the dramatic effects of cold temperatures on summer tyre grip at low speeds. 
 
In many parts of continental europe it is illegal to drive in winter months without winter tyres, and it doesn’t take much reading to see that even in the absence of snow the accident stats clearly show the effects on safety of cold and cold-wet conditions, where winter tyres have proven significant benefit.
 
A common misconception that you also hold is that winter tyres are only for snow, but in Canada I can confirm that there is a better option of snow tyres for REAL winters, with tungsten studs - I agree there is pretty much no place in the UK where these would be needed other than in unusual extreme circumstances in the Highlands.
 
(Just to lend credence to the above opinions, I am a qualified rescue driver, also with qualification in off-road driving / recovery & training of this, and own a Land Rover which I use on- and off-road, and would pick my Cayenne with winters on it over my Landie with AT / MT’s on it for driving on snowy / icy roads. Also happen to be a Trauma Surgeon so quite familiar with the consequences of poor driving...)
 
To put my perspective in the way you did in your last sentence “Anyway I am buying them...!”
 
 
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