Steering Shudder 65mph to 80mph

scam75 · Jul 12, 2019

Evening all

Had a busy day on the 44 today. Ball joint replaced drivers side with a Hamburg Technic kit. Thoughts on those? Seemed decent quality and all went together nicely. Had an advisory at last years mot on the ball joint. It was now officially gubbed, all good again. Replaced a crumbling brake dust shield same corner that I bought 3 years ago! Also re-packed and adjusted the wheel bearing, perfect now, and gave my brake pads a clean up and re-lubed with Bosch brake assembly gel type stuff. Was hoping the duff ball joint was responsible for the aforementioned shudder. It was not!

So pretty much the 10 years I've owned the car I have had this 65-80mph shudder. It comes and goes, varies in severity, not end of the world but do want it gone. In that time I've done both wheel bearings, both tie rods, one ball joint (today, other is good), changed discs, pads multiple times, cleaned up mating surfaces multiple times. Roll bar is good and poly-bushed. Alignment is spot on. Had multiple tyre changes and wheel balances. None of that has made any difference. Haven't changed the rack but it seems good. Only thing I haven't done is try swapping front wheels with a known good set. I do have a slight ding in one front wheel, but they balance perfectly. What else could it be?

Other things to note. Pressing brakes makes it go away. Also if its really bad (usually when car hasn't been used in a while) some hard stamps on the brake lessens the issue. Also sometimes, on even road surfaces, it can go away completely! I keep thinking it might be a sticky caliper of some description, but fronts were recently overhauled and rears free as a bird few months ago at last pad change.

Confused.com

Thought chaps.

Ta

Stuart

Frenchy · Jul 12, 2019

Tyre make ? My previous set of conti's gave wobble / shudder if left standing for a few weeks.

scam75 · Jul 12, 2019

Been using Toyo T1-R's for years on CS rims Jim.

Also to add wheels are torqued correctly religiously.

robwright · Jul 12, 2019

I know you said you repacked the bearing(s) but what you said about it going away when you apply the brakes just makes me think in that direction mate. Judder made by better by braking has always been a bad disc or bearing in my experience.

scam75 · Jul 12, 2019

The 2 bearings are fairly new Rob and and seem spot on currently with zero play or noise. I do need discs though as quite a big lip. However any time before with new discs problem remained......

robwright · Jul 12, 2019

OK point taken mate. I would be double checking everything in the geometry then. Theoretically top mounts or anything else shouldn't be affected by these symptoms but....? Everything at the rear OK? Problems can be transmitted through the whole drive train sometimes.

scam75 · Jul 13, 2019

Not done a whole lot at the back Rob. Discs, pads, calipers good. Have fitted rose jointed drop links and got Gaz Gold shocks on. It has had a full geo done a few times with no issues highlighted but maybe 3 years since last done. Wouldn't do any harm to get it all checked over. I need a new front OS strut as my Gaz has leaked. Getting fronts rebuilt so maybe get a full geo done after that. Never changed my top mounts but seemed good when changed shocks.

robwright · Jul 13, 2019

OK all sounds good and I know you know every inch of your car, as I do. Then like Spoc or Sherlock then once you have eliminated everything else then what is left must be the issue. I know it isn't that simple but logic does go a long way. 16 years Army and 14 years Railway engineering has taught me that. So what stuff haven't you touched on the car? Steering column? Rack?

blade7 · Jul 13, 2019

scam75 said:
Only thing I haven't done is try swapping front wheels with a known good set.
Thought chaps.

Ta

Stuart

This^^^^^, and or better tyres. According to most of what I read the T1-R has very soft sidewalls. And are only stable on really light cars. They were very cheap not that long ago, make what you will of that...

scam75 · Jul 13, 2019

Thanks chaps. I have done the steering UJ, but was a good few years ago. Seem to recall that didn't solve the issue either. Steering rack and a change of wheels/tyres is all I haven't done. Trying to get a scottish meet arranged in the near future so will try and borrow someone's wheels for a fact find I think.

Waylander · Jul 13, 2019

do you use steel locking wheel nuts, they are much heavier then the alloy nuts and can cause a wobble,

If you have then try taking the steel one off and go for a test, the wheel wont fall off with 4 nuts

BlackMagic · Jul 13, 2019

I had exactly the same symptoms for 10+ years. Changed everything and it stayed there.

In the end I tried a different pair of front wheels and it disappeared. on very close inspection, there was a slight warp in one of the front wheels. They balanced perfectly but they still wobbled between 50 and 70.

Life has been smooth since the change.

William

scam75 · Jul 14, 2019

Thanks chaps. I have the original Porsche lockers on Martin, or should I say 3 of them as one snapped and was replaced with a standard nut.

Today's update. Played golf and got frazzled in the sun. On way to golf popped into ECP to collect my 2 new front discs. Pagid for £87 the pair. Old discs stinking upon inspection, cant be more than 2 years/10k miles old. Pagid from ECP. So yes I bought another pair but wanted them today. On way home from golf put tyres up to 36psi. Previously 32psi. This did help a bit, Toyo side walls less wibbly with more pressure. Car actually drove ok and will leave them at 36psi. Got home and jacked up car, attacked driver side first as had did back plate, wheel bearing and ball joint there yesterday. Old disc needed a good whack to free it from hub, pretty flaky, worse on inside. Cleaned up mating surfaces and installed new disc. All good. Round to passenger side, bit of play in wheel bearing and disc a similar shambles to other side. Re-packed and adjusted wheel bearing, cleaned up mating surfaces and installed new disc and applied Bosch brake gel stuff to pads after a clean up. Pads quite new so re-used. Drop it back on its wheels and off for a test drive and also bed in the new discs. Low and behold everything is good. Possibly very very slight shudder but may well have imagined it. So last 2 days I've adjusted both wheel bearings, replaced the discs and done a ball joint and for the first time in donkeys it drives good in the dreaded shudder zone. Fingers crossed and see how we go. Thanks for all your input chaps!

scam75 · Jul 14, 2019

Oh and to add my awful squeal when slowing from 2mph to 0mph has gone. Must have been the discs. Happy days. It will come back though, it always does!! In all fairness when these Pagids chuck it I'll invest in better ones but job done for now.

Stuart

scam75 · Jul 14, 2019

And one last happy story. Those Pagids were £100 each on ECP website. Got a 36% discount code down to £129. Young girl in branch was not happy about price and reduced them to £87! Never even asked for a discount, must be my stunning good looks! [

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924Srr27l · Jul 14, 2019

Waylander said:
do you use steel locking wheel nuts, they are much heavier then the alloy nuts and can cause a wobble,
If you have then try taking the steel one off and go for a test, the wheel wont fall off with 4 nuts

Maybe a possibility, I bought a car once that only had 4 steel bolts for whatever reason the 5th was missing and this vibrated in a pattern!
It would shake for 5 seconds, then stop for 5 and so on!

The aluminium nuts are far lighter so maybe with only 4 it wouldn't do the same?

R

924Srr27l · Jul 14, 2019

scam75 said:
Thanks chaps. I have the original Porsche lockers on Martin, or should I say 3 of them as one snapped and was replaced with a standard nut.

Today's update. Played golf and got frazzled in the sun. On way to golf popped into ECP to collect my 2 new front discs. Pagid for £87 the pair. Old discs stinking upon inspection, cant be more than 2 years/10k miles old. Pagid from ECP. So yes I bought another pair but wanted them today. On way home from golf put tyres up to 36psi. Previously 32psi. This did help a bit, Toyo side walls less wibbly with more pressure. Car actually drove ok and will leave them at 36psi. Got home and jacked up car, attacked driver side first as had did back plate, wheel bearing and ball joint there yesterday. Old disc needed a good whack to free it from hub, pretty flaky, worse on inside. Cleaned up mating surfaces and installed new disc. All good. Round to passenger side, bit of play in wheel bearing and disc a similar shambles to other side. Re-packed and adjusted wheel bearing, cleaned up mating surfaces and installed new disc and applied Bosch brake gel stuff to pads after a clean up. Pads quite new so re-used. Drop it back on its wheels and off for a test drive and also bed in the new discs. Low and behold everything is good. Possibly very very slight shudder but may well have imagined it. So last 2 days I've adjusted both wheel bearings, replaced the discs and done a ball joint and for the first time in donkeys it drives good in the dreaded shudder zone. Fingers crossed and see how we go. Thanks for all your input chaps!

Sounds like it was and is several things then, the brake discs must of had some run out, and I suspect you mentioned a front wheel was buckled where is the flat spot on the inside edge normally ? Even though it's been balanced it can and will still produce an oscillation always typically at the frequenices from 65-75mph..

If you also tried several wheel shops for balance, did any of them have a 5x130 Special hub which holds the wheel by the bolt holes ? as opposed to the common cone type in the centre.

Yes the T1R toyo's are pants, so marketed for trackdays etc...but don't believe the hype, get some Michelins. They also could be out of shape
it's quite common for tyres to go out of round often due to low pressures and 32psi probably is too low for a 1.5 ton car

R

scam75 · Jul 14, 2019

Thanks. Yes I will ditch the Toyo's at next tyre change. I have a very slight ding on the outside of a front rim and no they have just been balanced on a normal machine. Never saw one of the 5 stud numbers before. Checked my records this morning and the Pagid discs were actually 4 years and 20k miles old. Can't really grumble, doesn't time fly!

Stuart

924Srr27l · Jul 14, 2019

scam75 said:
Thanks. Yes I will ditch the Toyo's at next tyre change. I have a very slight ding on the outside of a front rim and no they have just been balanced on a normal machine. Never saw one of the 5 stud numbers before. Checked my records this morning and the Pagid discs were actually 4 years and 20k miles old. Can't really grumble, doesn't time fly!
Stuart

I got lucky and bought a complete 5K kit for 1K second hand (A local tyre machine shop was closing down)
It also includes an expanding hub which centres the hole from the back, so in essence the wheel is held and positioned exactly as it would be
bolted to the car hub and not as odd as it may sound from a central cone which on some wheels is NOT dead central!

Made by Haweka - Very cheeesey Yankie movie clip but you'll get the jist…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95-2PnLKVA0

R