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CarreraRSR
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/06/09 09:58:36 (permalink)
924Srr27lI know everything with you is for "looks" but this doesn't assist a technical discussion on electronics.
 
Have you "Looked" at and compared the graphs ? this would be more applicable
 
Moving on it must of not been good enough as the engine's (On your movie clip) has now gone forced induction.
 
I wonder who rebuilt the engine, and did the charger install and also I'd of thought there would of been a power figure
quoted or a dyno sheet on the AA website had they of done it? or had someone else done it for them 
 
They had a go at a charged application 5 years ago, but didn't finish it or have produced and marketed a kit since. 
 
R




The Championship trophy appears to be proof the AA electronics, AA engine build, GAZ suspension and wrong offset wheels works. This car was second overall on points across all classes. He is usually quicker than the more powerful P1 class cars on many occasions. I hope all your efforts reward you with similar results at the end of this season with your build 
post edited by CarreraRSR - 2019/06/09 10:03:33

Steve
1980 924 Turbo Series 1 Alpine White & Guards Red Omega forged pistons, ARP studs + Cometic MLS HG, Piper 270 cam, K27/26 hybrid turbo, 951 FMIC, Custom intake, Mittelmotor dizzy & cam pulley, Hayward & Scott exhaust, GAZ Gold
John Sims
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/06/10 10:20:06 (permalink)
944Turbo
CarreraRSR
I’m no expert, but looks like it’s working well?
 
https://youtu.be/17Jls153l8A




nice video!


Quite so. I'd never really taken much notice of this track in the past but it is pretty spectacular that such as relativity short bit of tarmac can offer so much opportunity to totally annihilate your car. It is close on the absolute idiocy of special stage rallying...but without the scenery. Certainly a sport for those with ginormous sphericals. :-)    

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924Srr27l
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/06/10 13:46:43 (permalink)
CarreraRSR
924Srr27lI know everything with you is for "looks" but this doesn't assist a technical discussion on electronics.
 
Have you "Looked" at and compared the graphs ? this would be more applicable
 
Moving on it must of not been good enough as the engine's (On your movie clip) has now gone forced induction.
 
I wonder who rebuilt the engine, and did the charger install and also I'd of thought there would of been a power figure
quoted or a dyno sheet on the AA website had they of done it? or had someone else done it for them 
 
They had a go at a charged application 5 years ago, but didn't finish it or have produced and marketed a kit since. 
 
R


The Championship trophy appears to be proof the AA electronics, AA engine build, GAZ suspension and wrong offset wheels works. This car was second overall on points across all classes. He is usually quicker than the more powerful P1 class cars on many occasions. I hope all your efforts reward you with similar results at the end of this season with your build 



 
Nooo !  this is a poor mentality... 
 
This thread is about / or asked is the AA electronics any good ? 
 
To Say that said car and it's components must be good because he won a race series of short sprints ! This isn't any proof at all, this guy has been pedalling the sprint & Hillclimb scene for 10+ years! there's typically much less in a class (compared to circuit racing) and the reason the transaxle does well against many other classes (In hillclimbs and sprints) is because the weight balance is so even, that the cold tyres warm quicker than most other car's which are much more weight biased on one axle.
 
I looked at doing this championship but couldn't get enthused with doing 3 runs a day at 45 seconds long ..!!!
 
It's also a social scene and quite clicky, and when I enquired I also got the impression that they weren't keen to have my (High spec) car in the championship ! and besides I jumped at the chance to have a total of 75 minutes in the saddle with Endurance racing (some races are even 3 hours) and a very open set of regulations, because all the classic race series like CSCC Future classics etc..wouldn't allow a 924 to race with a 3.0 block ...
 
Getting back to your assumption AA gear must be good, your claims it must be are on a Racing application.
 
It never fails to frustrate me why some people think this is, or can be the same as something used on the road!!  
 
There's only one objective (For some!) in Racing to win, so if you can gain a tenth of a second you'll take it! If the car uses  the wrong offset wheels
the issues with this are accepted! as should be the issues with running a system like AA supply on the road. I'm not saying it doesn't run or work, but Jon Mitchell
mentioned he's taken a system off a car, and I also saw a car yesterday (up north) that's having the same thing done! 
 
I don't suspect for one second that a standalone system can and does extract the maximum from a motor when raced, and the faff and dyno time and costs etc..
are well worth it, but my take is why did my Stock stuff perform not just very well, but really well and in comparison to something that people think (From hearsay and marketing hype / pub talk etc..) that it's amazingly far superior to the OE Bosch stuff for ROAD use. 
 
It could be ~? but where's an decent explanation ? instead of slanderous personal insults..
 
As I said it's that good I've no need to change it for now, even in a racing application of which the 924 2.7's performance, (not to mention the 2 rusty drivers in their 40's) has come on leaps and bounds. It 's only done 3 race meetings so far and only finished 1 ! Due to a slipping clutch (One cover spring sheared + the heatsoak from a 3 min pitstop fried the pressure plate) and this year an overheating problem (An airlock in the water system) but it has and is in the top 5 in class from 18 last time out against modern machinery.
 
 
You lot of wannabe racers should be pleased that an old transaxle of the first gen (24) is kicking butt against E36 Beemer coupes / compact's, Mini's, Mx5's, & Clio's etc...!! 
 
 R
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

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944Turbo
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/06/11 23:48:54 (permalink)
924Srr27l
 
Getting back to your assumption AA gear must be good, your claims it must be are on a Racing application.
 
It never fails to frustrate me why some people think this is, or can be the same as something used on the road!!  
 

It was however designed for road use, it just happens to work well in this racing application. It could be argued however that mapping just for wide open throttle use is easier than mapping for a wide range of uses, such as cold starting in mid winter or hot starting and driving a fully loaded car in mid summer. The fact that some have been removed may be down to the person removing it not being able to get the best from it and or having another product to sell - If there are some removed and going cheap I would be very interested in some experimentation! 
Tony

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John Sims
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/06/12 10:45:54 (permalink)
944Turbo
..... The fact that some have been removed may be down to the person removing it not being able to get the best from it and or having another product to sell ...



I think there is also more of a move to put 944's back to standard "collectable" trim than to hot rod them these days.
 
As hot hatches get hotter and hotter, Boxsters get cheaper, and even family saloons provide an impressive turn of speed, the venerable 944 is perhaps no longer the best starting point if you want to go fast.  

John Sims


924Srr27l
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/06/12 11:01:40 (permalink)
John Sims
944Turbo
..... The fact that some have been removed may be down to the person removing it not being able to get the best from it and or having another product to sell ...

I think there is also more of a move to put 944's back to standard "collectable" trim than to hot rod them these days.
As hot hatches get hotter and hotter, Boxsters get cheaper, and even family saloons provide an impressive turn of speed, the venerable 944 is perhaps no longer the best starting point if you want to go fast.  



 
I think the percentage of owners who want and do modify 24's / 44's and 68's is quite small John maybe 15% ? ? 
I don't think this Transaxle has ever been known for being a hatch beater, but more a car that's easy and flattering to drive because it's competent build, the weight distribution and torquey engines almost similar to Turbo Diesel's ! 
 
The interpretation of "If you want to go fast" is very varied, there's lots of car's that do this in a straight line but not round corners especially your big lardy
BMW's with 3.0 Diesels! In my 1.5 years cruising the streets looking for competition the most amount of trouble I had in a straight line was with Turbo Diesels and in the corners was poxy Mx5's, Clio's and Civic Type R's! It was always best to play to the best strengths of the transaxle (Corners and braking stability) and hence I'd never attempt to outrun something in the wrong environment EG: On a Motorway against something with twice + the torque (depending if a round about was coming up!) or a scratty light hatch in the twisties.
 
The Poor mans Porsche as it's had such a label (which is probably now fading as they look so cool and retro) is far better than the reputation ever suggested
as it's a very good all-rounder and drives and feels like nothing else ever made. This is the appeal but your right if you want a hot hatch buy a 200+bhp Fiesta!


 

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PSH
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/06/12 21:15:01 (permalink)
Interesting course this discussion is taking...I'll just say that fast diesels or hot hatches on any road don't bother me...in fact nothing of any type has bothered me since putting the old girl back on the road more than 4 years ago, a few have tried....:)
 
Pete

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Waylander
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/06/12 22:53:12 (permalink)
But you have what some would class as a hidden advantage (smiley face)
 
proper wolf in semi sheeps clothing

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blade7
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/06/12 22:53:23 (permalink)
PSH
Interesting course this discussion is taking...I'll just say that fast diesels or hot hatches on any road don't bother me...in fact nothing of any type has bothered me since putting the old girl back on the road more than 4 years ago, a few have tried....:)
 
Pete


Sometimes Pete, I wonder if you've had too many sherbets....
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/06/13 08:50:04 (permalink)
blade7
PSH
Interesting course this discussion is taking...I'll just say that fast diesels or hot hatches on any road don't bother me...in fact nothing of any type has bothered me since putting the old girl back on the road more than 4 years ago, a few have tried....:)
 
Pete


Sometimes Pete, I wonder if you've had too many sherbets....




LOL. 300+ BHP and a relatively light car is going to have some advantages. However, having chased a Boxster S around Bands Indy in a similarly disposed Turbo I would suggest gobs of power (especially in the way 300 bhp old school turbo power arrives) isn't necessarily the tool for every occasion. And you have to consider how much it costs to develop that sort of power from a 944.

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PSH
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/06/13 11:26:01 (permalink)
Who only has 300bhp...not I....:)

944 Turbo......was 368BHP/382Torque.... now more...
924Srr27l
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/06/13 16:37:27 (permalink)
PSH
Interesting course this discussion is taking...I'll just say that fast diesels or hot hatches on any road don't bother me...in fact nothing of any type has bothered me since putting the old girl back on the road more than 4 years ago, a few have tried....:)
Pete



 
Yes but if was unfairly put on a track against an Mx5 with less than 200bhp, you'd not get anywhere near it, so you car must be on public roads I'm sure a missile in a straight line? 
 
It's maybe 285bhp per ton ? but without a race prepared chassis / Suspension etc..it'll not be up to much on a circuit but on a british dual carriageway in 3rd from 60mph when accosted by a Civic yep it'll be a ripper.
 
This is by no means me having a crack but I'd be more than interested for you (or anyone) with twice the power as my old girl to meet up and circulate at a circuit on a track day, it would be a great comparison but unfair really on my part as it's a Full race car, but then you'd think not a fair match if yours has twice the bhp / torque..?
 
It's all about power to weight and then suspension design / stiffness / set-up and geometry.
 
In the race series I'm in there's a GT4 Cayman and Beemer M4's  with 450bhp but they weight 1500kg's so they are in the 300bhp per ton (maximum) class, this year at Donington the BMW M4 Winner (of the 2 hour race) lapped best at 1M 44 secs the quickest class B (240bhp per ton) a Civic Type R 1m 48 and Class C (180bhp per ton) an Mx5 1m 53. 
 
With Respect Pete your car in it's current road car guise wouldn't be able to keep up with any of these boys on a Race circuit, not even the MX5 ! but on the road
on a straight....a total different ballgame! 
 
Some people like straights, some like corners....
 

 

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PSH
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/06/13 18:19:30 (permalink)
Well, I'll be the first to admit that my car's not set for the track, it does have uprated Koni adjustables all round plus some powerflex bushes and that's good enough for how I drive. My car will never see a track, I cherish it too much and although I do drive fast, both on straights and corners I'd never push the car anywhere near it's or my limit, you just can't do that and still be safe on the road...
Each to their own.....have fun on the track sir....

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924Srr27l
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/06/13 20:33:46 (permalink)
PSH
Well, I'll be the first to admit that my car's not set for the track, it does have uprated Koni adjustables all round plus some powerflex bushes and that's good enough for how I drive. My car will never see a track, I cherish it too much and although I do drive fast, both on straights and corners I'd never push the car anywhere near it's or my limit, you just can't do that and still be safe on the road...
Each to their own.....have fun on the track sir....




That's a refreshing change of answer that I'm used to from some of this forum, Well done Pete Horses for courses is spot on ! 
 
R

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924Srr27l
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/09/19 13:19:26 (permalink)
19 September 2019 15:53, justinmmm-tiscali.co.uk


New to the forum and just come across this thread re Augment Automotive's ECU. I compete in the PCGB Speed Championship and I approached AA at the end of 2014 when I wanted an engine to run in Class P3 (up to 205BHP).
We went for my 2.7 motor but with a new race cam that they had developed (not a regrind, but from a cam blank). With that cam and their ECU we achieved 192BHP.
We tested the engine on the road in a standard 944 and saw 0-60 times of 1 second quicker than with the standard engine (tested at 166BHP) and it drove very well and was very tractable. Won the class in 2015, 2016 and 2017.
The reason for adding the supercharger in 2018 was that I wanted to run in the next power class (up to 250BHP) and that was the simplest route to getting more power.
I used the same engine management system as previously and it has proved very reliable. Initially we achieved 235BHP but with a little fine tuning got to 240.
Enough to win the class and 2nd overall. In 2019 the regs changed again (!) and now I am running the same set-up and power but the class power limit has gone up to 280BHP.
Still proving competitive and reliable and the class win is secured. Championship depends on the final round next weekend at Shelsley.

Engine is standard bar no balance shaft belt, and with 2:1 supercharger gearing produces about 5.5psi max boost giving around 250lbft of torque.

I have now added a slightly larger crank pulley which gives 7psi max, 270ish lbft and around 260BHP.


 
 
924Srr27l
Thanks Justin, no offence I hope my Mate Andy wins this year !
 
I was amazed and pleasantly surprised how all my stock 2.5L Bosch AFM / Ignition and Fuelling compared to yours on the Dyno Graph AA had on their website @ 187bhp 
 
How can this of happened ? Your car would of had the AFM delete right? also a Race cam, 2.7 Bigger Valved sizes head? etc..oh and the AA Wasted spark ? and ECU etc.. 
 
Where as a select few on here and several other sites UK and USA think the OE Electronic equipment is antiquated / restrictive and guesstimating etc...!?
 
I'm sure many people would of thought such a system and the expense 3K + ?? would blow the bosch system away?
 
R




post edited by 924Srr27l - 2019/09/19 16:18:52

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Sprint924
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/09/20 10:51:46 (permalink)
New to the forum and just come across this thread re Augment Automotive's ECU. I compete in the PCGB Speed Championship and I approached AA at the end of 2014 when I wanted an engine to run in Class P3 (up to 205BHP). We went for my 2.7 motor but with a new race cam that they had developed (not a regrind, but from a cam blank), otherwise completely standard and with 90K miles on it. With that cam and their ECU we achieved 192BHP. We tested the engine on the road in a standard 944 and saw 0-60 times of 1 second quicker than with the standard engine (tested at 166BHP) and it drove very well and was very tractable. Won the class in 2015, 2016 and 2017. The reason for adding the supercharger in 2018 was that I wanted to run in the next power class (up to 250BHP) and that was the simplest route to getting more power. I used the same engine management system as previously and it has proved very reliable. Initially we achieved 235BHP but with a little fine tuning got to 240. Enough to win the class and 2nd overall. In 2019 the regs changed again (!) and now I am running the same set-up and power but the class power limit has gone up to 280BHP. Still proving competitive and reliable and the class win is secured. Championship depends on the final round this weekend at Shelsley.
 
Engine is standard bar no balance shaft belt, and with 2:1 supercharger gearing produces about 5.5psi max boost giving around 250lbft of torque. I have now added a slightly larger crank pulley which gives 7psi max, 270ish lbft and around 260BHP. My injectors are now maxed out and ideally need changing for larger capacity ones so there may be more power to be had. But hopefully enough to keep the 3.4ltr 911s at bay this weekend.
 
There are a few things I would note re comments in this thread. The AA ECU is a straightforward plug in to the standard loom so is easily reversed and the original AFM could be reinstalled if needed. Mapping is very simple via bluetooth on a laptop and all parameters can be readily and easily changed. I like to run close to 14.7AFR at low revs which is easily sorted (I log AFR, IAT and MAP), I like a soft rev limiter rather than the hard fuel cut of the standard ECU and achieve this by pulling timing as the rev limit selected is approached prior to a hard cut, adjustments to optimise cold/hot starting are simple. AA's ECU set-up is designed primarily for those wanting to do fairly radical changes and is aimed mostly at turbo installations I guess. But I am sure that they would be able to provide safe maps for anyone simply installing a new cam, thereby avoiding the need to do rolling road tuning to get every last BHP.
 
My supercharger install may not suit everyone - mainly as I have the throttle in the standard position and consequently have to have a blow-off valve which is noisy! But AA are working on different set-ups currently with the throttle before the supercharger inlet that should be quieter and probably more efficient and should give even better throttle response. Not that throttle response has ever been an issue in my race car! With 250lbft torque from 2200rpm to 4500rpm it probably picks up better than most turbo cars even if the ultimate power levels are much lower than a turbo can achieve, and is likely to much better mannered on the road. Certainly a load cheaper than fitting a turbo or a centrifugal supercharger from USA!
 
J
 
ps Roger, no offence taken! Championship in the lap of the Gods, weather may yet play a big part! I don't think AA have ever said the standard set-up is bad or guesstimates. I have no doubt it would cope fine with minor changes as after all it measures the airflow and supplies the "correct" amount of fuel. You can tweak the AFM to fool it into giving more fuel. The AFM must give some pressure drop on the inlet but probably not significant. AA reckon that their system would only give about 10BHP on an otherwise standard engine so would obviously not be financially viable - a fast road cam would give the same at less cost. But when you start changing injectors, want to run high impedance ones, add boost and so on you will want to be able to change the fuel and ignition maps and more. I also like to be able to adjust my rev limit. And for a road/occasional track car you can have different maps that you can load in seconds for the different driving conditions/needs. Other ECU solutions will offer very similar facilities I am sure. I considered Megasquirt but ultimately liked the plug in option AA's system provided and it has proved very reliable and flexible as I have changed the car. I run wasted spark but it gives no more power than the distributor, I fitted it as my adjustable cam wheel didn't allow the dizzy cap to be fitted and I felt it would be more reliable.
924Srr27l
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/09/20 11:11:47 (permalink)
Sprint924
New to the forum and just come across this thread re Augment Automotive's ECU.
 
J
 
I don't think AA have ever said the standard set-up is bad or guesstimates.
AA reckon that their system would only give about 10BHP on an otherwise standard engine so would obviously not be financially viable - a fast road cam would give the same at less cost. 



Hi, yes I'm sure the Speed champion overall will be down to several factors including the weather...
 
I was referring to a member on this thread that claims the stock Bosch ignition / AFM system is restrictive and poor etc...AA haven't directly said this
other than an indirect approach when there ECU was featured in 911 & Porsche world where the AFM was slagged as being restrictive and poor etc..
 
+ 10bhp by fitting there ECU etc...would also be achievable then with a live re-map meaning stock road cars and race don't need to change the ECU for a gain..
 
I was interested in the Supercharged route and even placed a deposit with AA about 5+ years ago! but they took too long and never released the product so I stuck with an N/A Motor
and with all stock 1980's 2.5 Ignition and fueling etc..but had some Head work done on the 2.5 Head, used a 3.0 block and a knife edge 2.5 Crank with a 274 profile (Web) camshaft from California then had the 2707cc engine all live mapped by Wayne Schofield at Chipwizards 
we started the day at 179bhp and ended 6 hours later at 205bhp and 205ft lbs torque. It worked very well on the road pulling in 3rd gear from 20mph (Car weight 1040kg) and then on the circuit it's also very flexible only using 3rd and 4th gears at Oulton Park and the rev limiter is 6300rpm



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944Turbo
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/09/20 14:32:06 (permalink)
924Srr27l
 
 
How can this of happened ? Your car would of had the AFM delete right? also a Race cam, 2.7 Bigger Valved sizes head? etc..oh and the AA Wasted spark ? and ECU etc.. 
 

Different dynos, different days .......................

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924Srr27l
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/09/20 15:15:19 (permalink)
944Turbo
924Srr27l
 
How can this of happened ? Your car would of had the AFM delete right? also a Race cam, 2.7 Bigger Valved sizes head? etc..oh and the AA Wasted spark ? and ECU etc.. 
 

Different dynos, different days .......................



Sure Dyno's all read different to each other, but this thread is about the Electronic alternative products from AA, and if they can produce better results more power etc..
Comparing all my stock 1980's 2.5L Bosch ECU / AFM / Dizzy & Ignition and Fuelling to an aftermarket system some 30 years later  
 
Both engines are 2.7, so why would the smaller valved 2.5 head (Ported by LR), with a smaller bore than stock exhaust and a mild road 274 camshaft be anywhere near Justin's AA tuned Race camshaft 187bhp engine and at less RPM.
 
It showed 18bhp more (205) on 9M's Dyno in 2016 and then 12bhp more at Chip Wizards new dyno in 2018 which he says reads less than 9M's.
 
Surely this illustrates that the AFM and Bosch systems when tuned and live mapped can be not just as good but in this case better / higher power & torque?
 
R
 
 

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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/09/20 18:32:20 (permalink)
Not quite sure where you are going with this! My thought is that a properly tuned chip is going to be just as good as a programmable ECU like AA's. Why wouldn't it be? But you don't have the flexibility and easy access to additional functions like wasted spark that AA's system has to offer. And you certainly can't change the mapping between an economical road set-up and a track day set-up in a matter of minutes. Our engines are quite different, I was very impressed with the extent that you went to with knife grind, forged rods and pistons, porting and more. Great job. My engine is bog standard with around 90k miles on it. Bar the cam and taking the balance belt off. Even still have the 6kg alternator and heavy flywheel. We got 192BHP out of that set-up on AA's uncalibrated rolling road. We were using the RR to optimise what we had but believe the figure to be reasonably close as I did take the car to Superchips before fitting the cam and on their RR we were also getting around 165BHP from the standard engine. There is a school of thought that says that the ports on the S2, which are much the same size as the 2.7 head are too large and compromise flow. I am no expert. But it certainly sounds like you have a great engine and you should be proud of what you have achieved. J
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When responding to advertisements please ensure that you satisfy yourself of any applicable call charges on numbers not prefixed by usual "landline" STD Codes. Information can be obtained from the operator or the white pages. Before giving out ANY information regarding cars, or any other items for sale, please satisfy yourself that any potential purchaser is bona fide.

Directors of the Board of Porsche Club GB, Club Office Staff, Register Secretaries and Regional Organisers are often requested by Club members to provide information on matters connected with their cars and other matters referred to in the Club Rules. Such information, advice and assistance provided by such persons is given in good faith and is based on the personal experience and knowledge of the individual concerned.

Neither Porsche Club GB, nor any of the aforementioned, shall be under any liability in respect of any such information, advice or assistance given to members. Members are advised to consult qualified specialists for information, advice and assistance on matters connected with their cars at all times.

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