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Frenchy
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2019/05/23 21:40:05 (permalink)

Augment Automotive.

Anyone fitted their kit, ECU, MAP sensor etc......if so thoughts / experience ?

Porsche 944 Turbo S (M758) Black 88.
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blade7
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/05/24 12:45:23 (permalink)
I lost interest in it when I read they suggest the best part of a day on their rolling road to set it up. There also seemed to be little independent road use experience/knowledge as far as I could see. 
924Srr27l
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/05/24 13:06:35 (permalink)
blade7
I lost interest in it when I read they suggest the best part of a day on their rolling road to set it up. There also seemed to be little independent road use experience/knowledge as far as I could see. 



 
Oh... does this mean your thinking a day on the RR to set up is too long ? and /or this may mean they don't understand fully what they are doing? 
 
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/05/26 11:41:12 (permalink)
I've had several dealings with Dave when sorting out my gearbox after trashing it. Always willing to talk and very knowledgeable. Never dealt with Tom but by all accounts he knows his onions. Wouldn't hesitate to recommend Jim.
 
Stuart 

'90 944 Turbo - Sunroof delete, Factory bridge spoiler, CS wheels, CS steering wheel, 1st MY90 turbo in UK
Promax L2 chips, SciVision MAF, Lindsey DPW, MBC, Forge recirc valve, 3 bar FPR, K&N panel, GAZ Gold, wideband AFR, Sytec Motorsport Fuel Pump.
Eldavo
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/05/26 11:56:11 (permalink)
A few people on here running VEMS - me included 👍

Current:
2002 996 3.6 C2
1988 944 Turbo S (not exactly standard)
Past:
2006 987 Boxster 2.7
1988 944 2.7
Caucus Marine Ti Racing-Developments
944 man
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/05/26 13:25:22 (permalink)
I’m impressed by Tom, but they’re far too expensive. Every item that you will require comes with a separate *rubbing hands together* price tag.
 
The system unit isn’t particularly dear, but they need to offer a lump sum price and accept that every item cannot be sold with a “that’ll do nicely” profit. 

Simon
On The Edge..... In The Hedge!
1988 944 Turbo - the Pink Pig
1989 944 2.7
1985 944 It's alive!
1986 944 Automatic
Frenchy
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/05/27 21:29:21 (permalink)
VEMS ?

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924Srr27l
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/05/29 13:08:18 (permalink)
Frenchy
VEMS ?



 
Is this for your S2 or the Turbo ? 
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PSH
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/05/29 13:50:14 (permalink)
Frenchy
VEMS ?


It's a stand-alone management system Jim, supposedly self-tune... not my cup of tea, I'm old school, but some here have it...
 
Pete

944 Turbo......was 368BHP/382Torque.... now more...
blade7
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/05/29 17:15:44 (permalink)
 Peeps VEMS kit may be the first plug and play standalone for the same money as the MAF/MAP kits that rely on the 30 year old DME and KLR.
Eldavo
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/05/30 12:44:51 (permalink)
blade7
 Peeps VEMS kit may be the first plug and play standalone for the same money as the MAF/MAP kits that rely on the 30 year old DME and KLR.




Yup - rather than fudging signals on 30 year old tech it manages to bring all the features and benefits of a modern standalone ECU whilst removing a lot of the faff factor. 
 
You can let it tune itself and it’ll be more than adequate or you can manually adjust everything or anywhere in between. 
 
I’ve had some issues with mine due to the quality of the signal it was receiving but it has transformed the driveability of the car no end as well as providing a whole host of features above and beyond what any other piggyback system can provide. 

Current:
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1988 944 Turbo S (not exactly standard)
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924Srr27l
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/05/30 13:16:09 (permalink)
That's all I've ever read about all these systems, issues, faff and seemingly ongoing.... 
It could also be that all the satisfied customers don't post, and it's only a small amount that do...
 
Also some people like to constantly change things (It's also an age / era thing like the smart phones!) but my Old Skool mentality has no interest in this, only if there's an issue will I look into it.
 
If I ever go Turbo with the racer, it'll be a DTA ECU and mapping @  Chipwizards once maybe twice, but I would expect
it to be done right (Which Wayne does) once and not have to continue with any constant twiddling with the tune issues etc...   
This is what I did with the 2.7 N/A, mapped once and after 6000+ road miles, 4 Trackdays and 3 (2 hour) Endurance events later.....No issues and / or need to faff about with the tune
 

Eldavo
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/05/30 20:30:02 (permalink)
The issues I’ve had are unique and most likely due to the state of my starter ring gear. More importantly, these issues pale into insignificance next to the features and benefits of the system. 
 
Edited by Admin
post edited by Peter_Bull - 2019/06/03 08:42:22

Current:
2002 996 3.6 C2
1988 944 Turbo S (not exactly standard)
Past:
2006 987 Boxster 2.7
1988 944 2.7
Caucus Marine Ti Racing-Developments
Frenchy
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/05/30 23:21:00 (permalink)
The Augment kit puts modern guts in the old ECU casing which in turn takes the original plug in harness, the MAF is replaced with a Hotwire system along with a 4 bar MAP sensor and a break out box for USB / Bluetooth tuning.
You can then add other features and have the tuning redone for high flow injectors / hybrid turbos / wasted spark etc should you want to go for more power.
The attraction is it can be reversed to standard set up in an hour or so if you keep your bits take off.

Porsche 944 Turbo S (M758) Black 88.
BMW E46 330i M Sport Touring Imola Red 05.
BMW 2.0D X3 M Sport Silver-grey 06.
Mini Cooper S R53 Electric Blue - White Top 53.

Indi9xx
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/05/30 23:34:29 (permalink)
For a race car I always recommend an aftermarket engine management system, along with lots of time on the dyno and road/track tuning it.
 
For a road car, unless the person is really into the tech, does not mind getting the laptop out for fine tuning over time and seasons, I tend to recommend steering clear of an aftermarket engine management system.
 
I have removed a few Augment engine management systems from customers cars, but I would stress that it was not because the system was especially bad, but more that it was not right for that particular customer, what they wanted from their car, and how involved they wanted to be with the cars running.
 
I am not a great fan of manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensors as the only airflow measurement, I do like MAF sensor based systems, I really like MAP-with-MAF solutions, and the MAP-with-AFM solutions out there.
 
My main problem with MAP only based aftermarket systems is the fine tuning, yes in theory MAP, with throttle position and rpm, along with the right software, should be all you need, many production cars have this, but the software and mapping for those off the peg cars have taken a massive team a long time to get to have perfect road manners and good reliable conditions for the engine.... Or... I am an old fart... you decide.
 
From a mapping position, sat with the laptop on the dyno and the road, building on top of the work that Porsche did with the DME, with improvements to the software in the DME, you get the benefit of variables and dynamics which I prefer with the AFM, which can be translated to a MAF setup, which can be built on with a MAF-with-MAP setup.
 
I stopped developing our own MAP with MAF years ago, during the recession to be precise. The amount of 944s being tuned reduced (compared to pre 2009), RogueAnt came out with his solution and the Vitesse MAF kits with piggybacks were still a good solid solution for me... I could pick it up again, but I don't think there is the market for it.
 
RogueAnt/LindseyRacing MAP-AFM and MAP-MAF systems are not bad, but it can be a struggle to get through emissions testing at times, depending on the entire car spec.
 
I also think that Joshua at RogueAnt missed a trick with his temperature sensor position and how it is used, there is an ideal position for the same temp sensor in the intake manifold of a 944 turbo just behind the throttle body, which would have provided more useful manifold charge temperature data, which would have added another dimension to the MAP-with-MAP kit.
 
I liked the Vitesse MAF kits, in particular with the piggyback for fine tuning, not tested the more recent ones though, not sure if they do a MAF-with-MAP package now (?) But all the 2.8, 3.0 and 3.2 engines we used to do always had a Vitesse MAF with piggyback back in the day.
 
I did get really excited about the RogueDME, which was completely backward compatible with the original DME and any chips, but with more modern circuit design and components, but Joshua seemed to exit the game, handed over to Lindsey Racing, and the DME seemed to die a death... I have been in touch with the guy that designed it for him, and he is willing to supply them, but only to a shipping address in his country, as he is scared that the US Goverment might hammer him for supplying technology to a third world country like the UK! lol
 
To be honest, initially I did also get quite excited about the Augment system when it came out, but for different reasons than people might expect, I was excited and pleased for Tom, on the basis that I thought that if it was done right, it could be a viable alternative to the original DME and KLR, not just for tuned cars, but for the standard cars... However I think the previously mentioned RogueAnt DME (someone elses product) is the real contender now for that position in the market, if the guy would just be happy to ship them outside of the USA.
 
I don't sell any of these, so have no axe to grind, just my own personal preferences and experiences. Whenever a customer needs something like this, I tend to point them in the direction of where to get it, rather than be a middle man, so I only ever benefit from the end result being right and with a happy customer (or club member looking for advice)
 
Oh, and before anyone says the 8051/8052 lacks processing power, believe me, the processor in the DME and KLR has no lack of processing power.. unless you want some seriously high rpm, but there are ways round that.
 
It might be 8 bit and running at a relatively slow speed in todays perspective, but very little processing is needed (very little number crunching or heavy lifting), unless the code is written in a high level language like nearly all the modern ecus are (and therefore need a chunkier processor, more ram, etc etc).
 
For the DME and KLR, they were/are coded relatively tight (efficient) low level machine code, and the hardware is quite cleaver in much of the signal processing being handled in the hardware on the board (sensors, including crank sensor signal processing)... If you delete the different maps switched by coding plugs, fuel quality switches etc from most of the Porsche Motronic 80's and 90's DME, the one bit of maths that the processor does do (on the fly transfer table calculations for the VAF), can be expanded into a lookup table, which can be also used for MAF, but what do you want to do with the extra processor cycles? Have it analysing Seti radio telescope signals for life on another planet?
 
But on the other hand, if you don't mind a project, then aftermarket can be fun, but I would only trust it, if you are happy to learn how to tweak and adjust it.
 
Just my 10p worth.

Jon Mitchell
Independent Porsche Specialist
Bournemouth, Dorset
Technical Advisor Porsche Club GB
blade7
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/05/31 02:05:30 (permalink)
I wondered if the temp sensor could get heat soaked mounted behind the throttle body? Now Russell Berry has passed away, will that be the end of any 944 piggyback development in the US.
924Srr27l
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/05/31 08:24:30 (permalink)
Indi9xx
For a race car I always recommend an aftermarket engine management system, along with lots of time on the dyno and road/track tuning it.
 
For a road car, unless the person is really into the tech, does not mind getting the laptop out for fine tuning over time and seasons, I tend to recommend steering clear of an aftermarket engine management system.
 
I have removed a few Augment engine management systems from customers cars, but I would stress that it was not because the system was especially bad, but more that it was not right for that particular customer, what they wanted from their car, and how involved they wanted to be with the cars running.



 
+1 Jon
 
R
924Srr27l
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/05/31 09:22:17 (permalink)
At one point I was looking to install everything AA sell, Cam, Wasted Spark System, ECU, MAP, Injectors etc..etc...
 
But I was advised not to, only at that time the car was being built for the road and I was told the all the Stock 2.5 N/A Bosch Ignition, Fueling and AFM etc..was perfect for the job by an UK Engine builder / Tuner / Race winner and even Wayne from Chipwizards confirmed the AFM that is slated as being restricted works very well and far better for road use.
 
Several times I questioned this as it's far too easy to be drawn in by modern tech and the thinking that it must be way better
than 30+ year old technology but I resisted and the results far exceeded my expectations.
 
AA did a 2.7 8v Motor for a chap who races in the Porsche Hillclimb series and on their website the results on this engine fitted with all their goodies (Inc special race cam) recorded a power figure in the 180's (bhp) and I think it was revving over 6500rpm
 
On the 9M Dyno with Wayne in 2016 my 2.7 all on stock 2.5 ign / Afm recorded 205bhp & 205 Ft lbs with a mild 270 Profile camshaft, Lindsey Racing 2.5 Stage 2 Head and an extrude hones inlet and a smaller bore tubing than standard exhaust.
 
I'd saved some £3000+ here and achieved higher power and torque with amazing driveability  on the road pulling clean from 1500rpm in 3rd gear (The 1040kg weight helped a lot as did the knife edge crank)
 
Easily Passing MOT emissions with only (1) straight through rear silencer and also then competing in Endurance circuit racing against many modern car's like Civic Type R's, M3's etc...very competitively all still on the same map!   
 
My point is (Before the Mutley crowd come in and declare I'm talking about my car too much!! - Only this is a Forum where people talk about their Porsches !!) there's often far too much "Hype" with New is best, which some components can be but others not so for the reasons the experts (Even though John Simms says the group doesn't promote) illustrate. 
 
I've no doubt if I fitted a DTA system on my motor now it would yield some benefits, but it's not going to be loads enough to be making the current stock system look silly.
 
In regard to the parts AA sell and others, you read the blurb, you listen to people that have fitted some and other people that have taken it off and make your own choice, but it's not a clear cut 100% benefit (especially for road use) and even track / Race as I've experienced.
 
R
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/05/31 11:03:23 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Eldavo 2019/05/31 13:39:48
I will just say that I love my Vitesse MAF+ and it's given me 'ZERO' problems, hence why I have never been tempted to go with these so-called modern alternatives, if it works and works well, why change it?... I first had the early MAF plus piggyback some 14 years back, this was upgraded 4 years ago to the MAF+ when the engine was rebuilt and aiming for much more power. Yes, Jon, it does use both MAF and MAP sensors, the upgrade basically added the extra software to the unit, plus a 3Bar map sensor and extra engine protection, such as reinstating the boost cut off that can be set via the Piggyback through a laptop. It can also plug into the Vitesse 'knock Monitor' system, something I may do one day once I have spare cash for the car, to busy spending it on live steam loco's just now...:)
 
Pete

944 Turbo......was 368BHP/382Torque.... now more...
blade7
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Re: Augment Automotive. 2019/05/31 13:07:35 (permalink)
When I was planning to visit my Mum in the US I contacted John (Vitesse) and said I'd like a kit sent to her address out there, He wouldn't do it. So I said I'd order it while I was there, apparently the 2-3 weeks I'd be there wasn't enough time to do that. When I asked why, he said that's just the way he did business. It did make me wonder who was the organ grinder. As for Augment, you pays your money and makes your choice. Though Peep will install the VEMS guts into a standard DME case, and I reckon it would do more/cost less than the Augment equivalent.
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