Road Safety Initiative Committee

[Guest]

Anyone interested about driving on the IoM should download the latest report from the IoM Govt committee.
See the link below;
http://www.gov.im/search.asp?Scope=&search=road+safety+initiative+committee&x=27&y=3
We have until the end of August to write - don't sit there now - and in 12 months time bitch about the speed limit![]
WRITE NOW.

 

[Al Nice]

Peter,

Do you think there is any value in submitting a consolidated response from the P-club? Maybe we can discuss this at our next Crosby session.

 

[Rotorhead]

Do you have the website address for the anti-speed limit petition?

 

[Guest]

Al,
I think that's an excellent idea mate;
How do we get more members to attend?
I've started a response already, and just today I have started taking photos of poor road conditions on the TT track - which I intend submiting with my response. They claim speed is the killer! Ha ha ha... If a minority ie, the 18-19 year old tea cossey brigade are the No.1 killers, then clamp down on em?!?[] But its the old story - a minority ruin it for the majority?
Make the mountain TT for cars with a certain Number plate - drivers who have completed an advanced drivers course? There are many answers apart from the Brain dead Uk answer - "er - Um - put a camera up - that'll fix em?" Derrrrr......(Thick as 2 planks)
The Classic car day at Peel later this month - I intend having as many copies of the report on hand as I can get - and hand them out to anyone interested.[]

Oliver,
The No limit site;
http://www.nolimit.org.im
Put your dog's name down as well!

 

[Julian Trinder]

As much as I hate to disagree with two of my fav. people I wonder if a consolidated approach by the Porsche Club is the best way forward? There is a danger that any approach could be written off as coming from a bunch of overpaid speed freaks? Perhaps writing in as individual citizens of the IOM in a well-balanced way may make more headway. It is interesting that Cretney already seems to be getting slightly marginalised for his opposition to a blanket speed limit due to it being well known he is a biker and also his connection with the TT. Just my 2 cents worth. I will go along with the consensus viewpoint as a good club member ultimately.

Ps. I'm not really scared of the Yank and the Oz....

 

[Guest]

We need to put a levelled argument otherwise it will go largely unheard.

1. Can we establish the number of accidents over a certain period of time.
2. Establish the age of the drivers and any 'outside' circumstances.
3. Establish the types of cars involved

If we can draw up a claim against young drivers for example (and while I think it is the youngsters, there have also been some oldies in rather more smarter cars go over the edge on the mountain - don't forget that) and show what cars they are driving (if it turns out to be small hatchbacks, then you can claim that 60mph will make no difference anyway - you may (MAY) be able to bring something to the table.

As I see it, we are all to blame in one form or another - bad driving by Porsche Club guests during Manx Tours and Manx 50 for example - (one of our directors got done for dangerous driving ...... as I say, don't forget things like that). I watched a visitor perform wonders in his 964 during the last Manx 50 and I was keen to find him later and give him a piece of my mind - I did just that - ask Geoff Ives who had to pull me off!!

Speeding may not be the cause of some accidents and whether 60mph will stop incapable youngsters in incapable hatchbacks killing themselves is debatable without proper knowledge of the facts. Remember it was an older Porsche driver that came off on the Gansey Bay road at Christmas and I believe there was a fatality there?

I took and passed my racing drivers test at 19 years old and I have a very healthy respect for what a car can do. It is a leathal weapon - in anyones hands - I know, I've lost some racing friends to it. I drive my 911 over the mountain with a healthy amount of respect, firstly for the road and secondly, for the other drivers - I know I can do silly numbers, but I dont. Remember the Boxter that spun at the Gooseneck on the last Manx 50?

I have (so far) resisted signing the anti-speed limit campaign. Those of you who know me will probably be puzzled by that. But I have seen the damage (carnage) cars can do - just take a trip to the crunch - yard behind the test centre. I like speed (my wife swears I am adicted to it) - but the difference with me is that I know when and where to use it. Believe it or not, I have pushed cars of the circuit, but never off the road - but I bet you, I'll still beat you over the mountain!

I would like to see a compitent argument made to government based on the following:

1. A system whereby 'other' road users can report incidents of dangerous driving EASILY.
2. Video link camers around the TT Course - monitoring driving standards NOT SPEED.
3. A staged level of compitentness of drivers - say a 17 YO with zero experience in a Nova - max 40 mph to a 40+ YO in a Porsche (for example) with an advanced driving or racing certificate - say 90 mph.

Of course, the above needs careful consideration, but be realistic. To turn anything around, the argument has to be strong and based on proper facts. Not just "I want to drive fast" - you'll get nowhere and I don't want anything to do with that. Ask what's in it for them (the road safery people and indeed the police that have to attend some of these incidents - I run cold just thinking about it).

Has anyone done an advanced driving course? Ask yourself, would you pass it? Try this, when you drive, have a continual running commentary going on (aloud or in your head) and see just how much you pick up and be honest, how much you miss. Before you get in your car, just think about the amount of energy you can generate and then drive that energy with as much smoothness as you can. Speeding is not the only pleasure you can get from a sports car ...... driving it properly must rank at the top.

So where does all this leave us, in a sadly decling world where true motoring enthusiasts are restricted. We are in an age where cars are so comfortable and fast (really speaking) compared to say 20 years ago. A simple Saxo will leave you wondering where on earth Citroen found all that go.....

Take it on the chin guys, and handle it, don't just fight it.

I don't think a united Porsche Club approach will acheive anything - in fact I think the exact opposite actually. Prove you can drive your 911 first, then go and bang your drum - that's what I did!

Get a solid, well founded discussive argument and present it properly.

Alternatively - go and buy a cabriolet and cruise in the sun - that's also what I did!

 

[geoff Ives]

- (one of our directors got done for dangerous driving ......

Careful Tony. That is not entirely true and could be considered libleous. One of our Directors certainly did have 'some councelling' but did NOT 'get done' and there was to my knowlege no mention of 'Dangerous driving' he took his dressing down manfully and this was, in my opinion, Manx justice at it's best.

Geoff Ives

 

[Julian Trinder]

I think the statistics in the report are pretty crystal clear on the age of the drivers involved in the accidents and also that most of the bad ones involve motorbikes (no surprise there). There are also some interesting figures on the average speeds over the mountain although the DOT's kit is only calibrated up to 150mph. Look at the figures for the Creg which is generally a restricted speed area during TT.

To be fair to the police they seem to be stepping up enforcement in restricted speed areas. There was a bike cop outside our house today for nearly an hour. I saw him stop about 8 cars of which 2 were taxis. Most motorbikes he ignored although a lot of them were obviously speeding.

I may be a cynic but I don't know how they can stop bikes speeding without Gatso's. During TT the cops just shake their heads as the boys go through Union Mills at what must be at least 60mph+. The speed they are doing plus the tiny weeny licence plates make stopping them nigh on impossible.

I am more of a fast accelerator and corner guy anyway so top speed is always a mute point but it is easy to go over 60mph on a straight without realising it in some of the cars we drive. Perhaps we should get into drifting up at Jurby or the car park at the Colby (joke).

I also think the IOM has been marketed as a high speed location for so many years now that people come over expecting to be able to go mad. I could reference Top Gear, the Motorbike Mags. etc. This month's Revs Magazine (ok I read it from time to time) says that being able to hit the black stuff at any speed you like plus 24hr drinking makes the IOM a top place. I think this is largely the IOMs fault so I think it is harsh therefore to go too mad at people when they go over the top when they get here. I am not talking about ignoring all out lunacy though of course.

In any event the whole topic is raising some interesting issues which I read with interest.

 

[shadwell]

Well people, there certainly are some interesting discussions going about.

I, too, think that any response to the proposals should be as individuals. The Club, as such, should probably not be seen to be taking any particular stance on the matter. Any letter landing on the DoT doormat with Porsche on it may spend a short spell as a coffee mat before making its way into a Government shredder.

I, personally, will be attacking the issue in exactly the same way as I do the Gatso issue. To promote the idea that a driver is safe because he is not speeding is fundamentally wrong.

We've all seen the 40mph merchants around, they do the same speed no matter where they are. That means that they speed in town, and go too slow out of town. In both cases there is a potential dip in safety levels.

Speed limits and enforcement of those limits take the attention away from the goal that we should be striving for, driving to the conditions of the road. Driver focus should be on potential hazards and driving the car accordingly. There is absolutely no doubt that the general standard of driving on the Island is very low. A few examples can be seen on every trip you make, not indicating at roundabouts, not going at roundabouts, tailgating, pulling out without looking etc.

This is also the case in the UK, and gatso cameras have done bugger all to reduce the deaths on the road. It contradicts all the other messages and messes up driver psychology.

The Island has a real chance to take a world lead in terms of road safety. Promotion of driving standards, also the one area that any progress has yet to be made. Cars are safer, road are safer (although not over here), drunks don't hit the streets as much as they used to.

Drink driving is another area where the wrong message has been used to tackle the problem. The message has been that is your under the limit, you're fine. If you over then your dangerous. In itself a dangerous message to send out. After two pints I might well be under the limit but wouldn't dream of driving anywhere. My driving standard is less with two pints on board. The difference with drinking in comparison to speed is that there is a direct correlation between safety and alcohol - you can't drive well when you're pissed!

That's an aside. I urge you all to put forward the case that promoting and enforcing speed limits is bad for driver psychology. Encouraging, or forcing, drivers to develop their skills would have a spectacular effect on deaths and injuries, and would lead the way in terms of road safety.

Having no bald-tyred death traps might help too. Don't give up hope just yet.

Cheers
Dave

 

[Guest]

Having not been to IoM, I am not sure if what follows is appropriate, but:

If the accidents involve only the person driving/riding, then I believe that people should be treated as adults. At the Nurburgring you have the opportunity to drive fast - if you are an idiot and do not have respect for the circuit or your vehicle, you will quite possibly crash. This is natural selection. People have to accept some responsibility for their actions.

If the accidents involve others though, then it is hard to argue against protecting innocent parties, without being easily marginalised.

Since the majority probably involve bikes, then why restrict car use? The same happens near me - bikes seem to behave with impunity whilst car drivers then have to accept the results of the resulting clamp down. It is bikers that need to be reminded of their own mortality. They would no dount ignore speed limits in any case.

Perhaps if would be possible to impose financial constraints in the minds of those using the roads - like the Nurburgring, where it is expensive if they have to come and get you, and even more so if you force the road to be closed (plus pay for any damage).

Alternatively perhaps you could take the Nurburgring suggestion further and recommend a lap fee, or controlled access to certain sections, so the funds could cover safety improvements such as resurfacing, barriers, signs, etc.

Alternatively, you could perhaps regulate the speed limit, by having it in force during certain times. Then everyone would know when the some enthusiastic driving could be expected.

You also have to consider the enforcability of any suggestion, since speed limits based on age, experience, or vehicle would be very difficult for the police.

I also think you would be ill advised to make a suggestion from the P-club, since it would be easily dismissed and would too readily pigeon hole the club. I would suggest forming a separate group and try to involve as wide a cross section as possible. But make sure that any suggestion is a step forward and addresses safety issues (whilst retaining some freedom), rather than being seen as a knee jerk reaction.

 

[shadwell]

Worth having a look at this: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/

 

[Guest]

Okay Geoff I take your point....... my apologies for overstepping on that one. Point is though, it happened.

I see apauling driving on a daily basis here - I have reported many but where do you stop? Just a normal drive over the mountain can be a real eye opener. Something HAS to be done!

Be it speeding or dangerous driving (I would conclued the latter), but lets face it, the faster you go the harder your going to fall - so I can see the speeding point of view. This may be the broad brush solution - not very well thought out, but never-the-less a step to at least try to protect the innocent road user. What you have to also consider here, is how many can really deal with speed? When all is going fine and all your wheels are pointing in the same direction, then speed is safe, but when things go wrong and you can't handle it, then speed is a danger and the harder your going to hit something.

I agree with Julian - most bikes are ignored which annoys me. Outside his house in Union Mills, there is a 30 zone which only two or three of us actually respect. I've been overtaken there by white vans at alarming speeds (you know the ones with the 40 sticker on the back!!!). I live in a 20 zone - but do you think even my neighbours give a damn?

Speeding is a culture here - and do you know why? a simple lack of will-power and the fact that they can get away with it. Again I agree with Julian that promoting it for such events as TT and the like - has caused more problems.

Bottom line is - we have de-restricted open roads - but if most can't even respect the residential limits, then what hope have we got?

I apologise again for my lack of backing to the anti-speed limit campaign, but I really believe something has to be done. If I were comfortable with it, then okay, but I'm not - and I think this may just be the 'kick in the pants' needed to get through to some (most) drivers who take lives for granted.

For Christsake, don't let it be your family at the wrong end of this!

 

[Julian Trinder]

Unfortunately I think I have to agree with Tony that some speed control is inevitable and probably necessary for the greater sake of society. I fully agree with the adage that "speed does not kill, inappropriate speed does" but unfortunately as we all know 90% of laws need to be in place just because of 10% of society. It is a sad fact of life. We should also not forget that a blanket speed limit might make it easier for the Police to prosecute dangerous drivers as I have it on good authority that some of the bad accidents are hard to prove as dangerous driving cases when they occur in the derestricted speed areas.

That being said as a tax paying, law abiding IOM resident I will be looking for some serious effort by the authorities to control, catch, prosecute the lunatics who ignore the limits during the first TT after the blanket speed limit comes in (or maybe just the first Sunday thereafter as you will appreciate if you were on the TT course first thing this morning). If it is just a free for all like normal it will really stick in my throat"¦.

As a post script (and I am not up to speed on this point myself) is the Island any further forward on meaningful legal link ups with the UK/Eire so that dangerous drivers/speeders can have a real punishment when caught during TT? We all know what I am talking about here in that dangerous drivers get booted off the Island with a driving ban in the IOM that is not enforceable elsewhere (which basically means they go unpunished). Obviously if there is no threat of a realistic punishment a minority of people will just ignore IOM laws anyway.

Oh and by the way I am not anti-bike, as most of you know, just anti bad bikers.

 

[Guest]

Its excellent to see a response coming in.
Where are all the other members responses from the IoM?

The previous comments are all valid points. It shows what passion people have of their cars and their driving. That alone would be great to illustrate to the DoT!
My personal arguement is not just at the 60mph speed limit; but is the daft idea that simply lowering the speed limit and doing little else will solve the problems.
My arguement is based on the poor - underline - poor engineering standards found here on the IoM. This is fundamental.
In an ideal world the roads would all be built like a speedway - properly cambered and banked corners, clear line of sight, no blind interections, etc, etc.
To build a road along a original horse & cart track (as on the IoM) and retain all of the original layout is total madness. And this is how most roads (incl Across) are made! Instead, new designs should be made, with unnessacary bends removed, the road made level, proper effective drainage, clear interesections, properly spaced line marking, so on & so on.
Instead, apart from the mountain part of the TT, all roads here are old goat tracks!
No wonder there are accidents!
These roads where fine up until the 1970/80's - cars could only do 60 or so! Now, cars are capable of 110mph + ! So of course there will be accidents.
Peopel will always speed.
Roads need to be re-built.
People need to be trained how to drive - not just road rules!
Govt need to be held responsible.

 

[Julian Trinder]

I think from the DOT report the speed limit is only the tip of the iceberg. If you read the seperate Bradden plan for instance there are also a lot of junction changes, traffic calming measures and other stuff to come. I think whether the speed limit comes in or not (and let's face reality it may take a while to get it in when the tourist industry etc. realise it will effect their takings as it may kill the TT possibly) a lot of the roads we like to "push" on will become less easier to drive quickly on in any event.

 

[shadwell]

My worry is, if you make the roads too "easy" then people switch off. An extreme example is motorways. How easy is it to switch off on a motorway, especially a quiet one. You have to train people to look out for hazards, think ahead.

Speed limits may not actually work, in fact it could be detrimental. Telling people that what they need to be good, safe drivers is to obey the speed limit will not work.

Let's not confuse the speeding bikers with the bad, speeding ones. It ain't the speed it's the driving. I don't fancy piling into a bike coming the other way with both of us doing 60mph any more than I do if I'm doing 80mph. Even a head on with both doing 30mph is likely to be lethal.

If nobody is taught how to deal with a car at speed or when things get hairy then we will still be left with the absolute chaos that ensues when an inch of snow falls. Tony's right, something has to be done. We all think we're pretty good drivers, and we are. But do you think that's because we don't exceed 60mph, 30mph in town? No, it's because we respect the car, know what it can do, don't trust other road users and are always on the look out for danger.

Cheers
Dave

 

[Julian Trinder]

Let's not confuse the speeding bikers with the bad, speeding ones. It ain't the speed it's the driving. I don't fancy piling into a bike coming the other way with both of us doing 60mph any more than I do if I'm doing 80mph. Even a head on with both doing 30mph is likely to be lethal.

Dave,

Let's not ignore braking/stopping times here. If my kids step off a kerb without looking I want someone coming towards them who is braking from 30mph (the legal limit) rather than the best driver in the world having to brake at 60mph.

The big problems in the IOM (in my opinion) are the bikes, lorries etc. Bikes because so many of them really ignore all the limits and will continue to do so in my opinion and the lorries because they can do so much damage and don't stop quickly.

 

[Guest]

Spot on Julian.

And you also bring up the lorries ..... let's not mention the taxis, white vans, boy racers, Subaru drivers etc.... let's just look at the 40 ton monsters rocketing along at alarming speeds.

The report mentions QEII school (amongst others) - I'll use this school as an example because I collect my daughters every day from there and I go cold at the speed at which most lorries (and cars) go past when hundreds of kids are about - mostly walking into the road. On the Glen Vine section, I watched the lollypop lady step back onto the curb because she knew that the menace lorry approaching at something over 50 was not going to be able to stop!

I have a saying everytime I see a lorry (but it's not repeatable on this forum without upsetting somebody).

So come on, let's have your taxi stories, white van stories, mobile phone stories - we all drive the same roads so you must see it as well as I do - and how about the scooters ...... jeez...... I am flabergasted at best and my comments are certainly not repeatable on this forum.

Lorries are bad news - driven with a below average mentality of I'm bigger than you so get out of my way!

 

[Guest]

Sorry, I forgot courier drivers!

 

[Julian Trinder]

To test the main topic again what do people think the top speed limit on the Mountain should be when taking into account all these varied and well made points??

For instance I might say 90 or 100 mph because I don't really go faster than that these days but have hit 120 on occasion and felt it was quite safe as there was nothing around. Of course that was in a car that was built to handle it rather than a Saxo or base Subaru (sorry guys an M3, don't trust my brakes that well on the 911).

By the way I am very keenily trying to find a decent Fiat 500 so if anyone hears of one anywhere for sale let me know. Any condition. Just right for the new speed limit....

Sorry to be a forum hog.